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Question The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today? ( AVForums General Home Cinema Chat )
Updated: 2008-05-09 05:46:44 (803)
The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

A potential customer walks into a high street AV retailer and takes a demo of some equipment they are interest in purchasing. The customer takes their time and maybe a cup of coffee and makes the decision to buy. Then they whip out a piece of paper with details of the same equipment for sale cheaper at www. whatever .com and tries to get the dealer to match the price. Or worse they just walk out of the shop and buy online.

Having spoken to lots of people in the AV industry, I have come to the conclusion that the big problem (perhaps the biggest) for the UK AV industry is the effect of internet sales.
Why? Because
  • internet sales have risen dramatically and will continue to do so (see note 1 below).
  • the cost of selling on the ?net is considerably lower than from a high street shop and therefore online prices are lower (see note 2 below)
  • high street retailers are losing business to online stores
  • manufacturersí pricing structures have not reflected the costs of making a sale. I.e. the cost of the kit to retailers is the same whether it is to be sold mail order or in a shop
  • Some retailers are fighting back by refusing to stock certain manufacturersí products unless the pricing structure is altered to create ?a more even playing fieldí (see note 3 below)
This chain of events has caused a bit of a ruckus in the industry. As consumers, we should try to appreciate what happens behind the scenes because it affects us. If all the high street retailers were to go bust because they lost all business to online retailers, we would have nowhere to audition our AV kit (see note 4 below). And the very best advice is to audition equipment before you buy it (see note 5 below). High street retailers can offer us a valuable service we simply canít get from online stores (see note 6 below).

Many manufacturers are reacting to the situation by either
  • preventing their products from being sold mail order using various methods to discourage the retailers (see note 7 below)
  • restructuring their costs to retailers. Products are either more expensive if they are destined to be sold online, or they are cheaper if they are destined to be sold in a shop. Or a bit of both (see note 8 below)

In short, then, the perception that most of the UK AV manufacturers, distributors and retailers have is that the internet is bad for their business.

The solution?
UK AV manufacturers, distributors and retailers need to understand what the internet actually is. They need to appreciate that it is used by people ? their customers ? to find information in the same way as people buy AV magazines to find information.
They should use the internet to send their message to their customers.
A message something like ?buy from our high street retailers/our shop because we can offer you a different/better service than you can possibly get mail orderí.
Imagine a magazine advert which you only had to touch with your finger to get more information about the company/products. Thatís what you get with internet advertising.

But the internet is relatively new and the concept of advertising on it is completely alien to some companies. I guess part of the problem is that the marketing people donít know where they can advertise. In the UK there are only two significant online resources for home cinema ? the Home Cinema Choice group of sites and the AV Forums.

Many AV manufacturers, distributors and retailersí adverts are conspicuous by their absence on the AV Forums. Where are the adverts for Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, Philips, Toshiba, Sharp, B&W, CEDIA, Sevenoaks, Audio Excellece, Audio-T, Practical Hi-Fi? Are these companies not interested in reaching the same target audience they get with What HiFi, Home Cinema Choice etc.?
What Hi-Fiís ABC (number of issues sold) is 70-80 thousand per month; we have an ABC of over 150,000 every week!
Itís somewhat surprising that the AV Forums ? the busiest home cinema community in Europe - is not getting support from these important companies.

In summary
My message to people buying AV kit is not to forget the added value you are getting from a high street retailer which justifies their prices. And donít go for an audition in a shop just to then buy online. It is morally corrupt and ultimately bad for you as a consumer.

My message to AV manufacturers, distributors and retailers is to embrace the internet ? ideally the AV Forums ? and use it to get your message to your potential customers.

Note 1
Roughly half the UK population shopped online this Christmas, spending more than ?3bn. Research shows that UK customers are among the most enthusiastic online shoppers. The European Interactive Advertising Association found that 30% of British consumers bought more than 16 items online in 2004, compared with 19% of shoppers across Europe.
Note 2
High street retailers have to pay for rent (expensive in prime locations), staff (highly trained staff are not cheap and 'highly trained' is what we consumers demand), demo rooms and demo stock. It is significantly more expensive to run a high street shop than a mail order business
Note 3
Paul Lee-Kemp of Sevenoaks has written an open letter to manufacturers highlighting the problem. He has ?declared warí saying that unless the pricing structure is made fairer, Sevenoaks will not stock their products.
Note 4
Is the boom in online sales and stiff competition on price good for us as consumers? On the face of it, maybe, yes. The price of equipment in ?rip-off Britainí is heading in the right direction, right?.
But I ask you to think longer term. If we do not buy from high street retailers then surely they will go out of business. Or at the very least the quality of their demo rooms / trained staff / variety of equipment will drop. Then our choice as consumers is diminished.
Note 5
What is the best way to buy kit? Personally I think we should read reviews by the magazines (online and print), compile a shortlist of the products which most suit our needs and budget, ask for advice from readers of the AV Forums and finally audition the kit yourself. The auditioning part is the most important because only you are going to know whether you like it or not!
Note 6
Besides offering us demonstrations, high street retailers can also install kit for us, calibrate it (no display is correctly calibrated out of the box), and offer an after-sales support service which canít be matched by online retailers.
Note 7
Actually Linn have had a policy in place for over 10 years which states that a Linn dealer must be prepared to provide on-site support for its products. You donít find Linn products being sold online.
Other manufacturers like Denon, Yamaha and Velodyne are insisting that their top-tier products are not sold mail order and some must be installed by the dealer.
Note 8
How the manufacturers are going to keep tabs on which stock has been sold face-to-face and which has been posted mail order is an interesting problem. Maybe it will be a cross-checking of serial numbers at warranty registration time?

Answers: The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today? ( AVForums General Home Cinema Chat )
The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamMG
And yesterday and the day before I suppose.....

Anyway, no-one is suggesting you lie or "do anything" to get a sale, you are missing the advice completely...... If your good at your job, embrace the new way of working, others have and are not doing that badly in an industry that really does need to change in a fair number of places..... Giving up and having a "moan" won't help pay your bills mate......
Maybe i'm on a week off........

I never said anyone accused me of lying, all i said was i'm not about to become a salesman. I'll do what i know and continue to give good advice to people who deserve it.

What the hell is a forum for if you can't have a moan!! You lot have been moaning about dealers for over a week now! One way street it seems....

And why should i 'embrace the new way of working'? If i want to sit on my arse and send out parcels all day i'll flog crap on ebay Me, i'll help people until the specialist dealer base dwindles to the point of extinction and see what happens. If i don't leave this dying industry beforehand

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

The thing is that if all the current dealers actually start re-appraising their traditional sales methods and prices it will be like the BBC selling advertising air time, there won't be enough to go round, so hopefully this wake up call (I'm not saying I agree with all that people say here) will see the poor service and "head in the sand" dealers go under and then leave enough for the true customer focused and caring dealers to make a living and give me the continued service I had come to expect from those I know are true specialists.......
BTW, some branches of SS&V are not bad at all, I am however, if I'm honest, genuinely surprised at Mr. Kemp's business plan! After all they don't have the letter C anywhere in their name.....

GrahamMG

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
It's ok if you can sell products on the internet, but there are those who can't offer certain products on the internet due to dealer agreements!
Just noticed this snippet.

So how exactly is the internet inhibiting the sales of these products then? . Sounds more like other dealers are knocking you about here.

Ed Selley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tons of fun
Just noticed this snippet.

So how exactly is the internet inhibiting the sales of these products then? . Sounds more like other dealers are knocking you about here.
Just stating that even if you sold online as well as in-store, some products are protected.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Helicon

I don't think you'd be able to sit about all day on 'it' as your heads already up there - not a salesman; what the heck does your employer employ you for then!!!

I'm not sure a 'Customer Focused Product Advisor' has much of a future in mid range HiFi, Home Theatre or AV!

If your not paid to sell what exactly are you paid for.

Joe

Joe Fernand

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand
I'm not sure a 'Customer Focused Product Advisor' has much of a future in mid range HiFi, Home Theatre or AV!
Joe
So do you sell people what you want to sell them? Do you sell them unsuitable items just to get shot of them because they're discontinued? Do you not care what your customers need?

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand

I don't think you'd be able to sit about all day on 'it' as your heads already up there
Whatever......

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Hello Helicon

None of the above - though I'm still a salesman; if I don't sell anything I don't eat.

I don't have to compromise anything whilst being a Salesman.

Your applying 'old school' business practices which don't have a place in today's market.

I have to know what our customers are looking for (or will be looking for) tomorrow and make sure I have it in stock today - I don't fill up stock rooms full of kit just to get a quantity discount.

I don't have anything I need to get rid of - we work much faster than that; our usual problem is getting a hold of stock not getting rid of it.

Click on 'Trader Rating' below my name on the Left Hand edge of the page - on here (AV Forums - the Internet) you live or die by giving good advice, providing decent service and products customer want! That's what REALLY scares the old school HiFi Shop owners!!!

Best regards

Joe

Joe Fernand

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Well, a little different for me, i work on a flat rate, so there's no need for me to push people into sales in order to reach targets.

"I have to know what our customers are looking for tomorrow and make sure I have it in stock today"

You sound like an advert!

I'm sure many of my customers over the years would have a few things to say about some of the things said on here.......

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
Secondly things aren't too busy in some cities at the moment
I've never been busier I think you will find it's not busy for the companys who can't adopt a better business model, adapt to your surroundings!

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntslik
I've never been busier I think you will find it's not busy for the companys who can't adopt a better business model, adapt to your surroundings!
It's got naff all to do with that - SOME places may be busy, others aren't, plain and simple.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
It's got naff all to do with that - SOME places may be busy, others aren't, plain and simple.
If thats your commercial outlook on the industry then your are doomed my friend

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

I'm not saying etailers aren't dropping them for the reason you mentioned, i'm just making clear that they were being dropped by other dealers for the reason i mentioned BEFORE the internet thing became public.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Thats Ok, im not saying your incorrect in your info, sony are a royal pain in the butt to deal with in any sector.

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Very true.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

ok, first of all, current top price graphics card is the nVidia 7800GTX 512Mb with 580Mhz core.......at a lovely £530.....then it settles down to the 490 core clocked 256Mb versions at an average £380ish at the main top end, with ATi racking up their X1800XT around £330-350ish...

now back to the main topic...heh.....a lot of b&m hifi shops do have a website, however small, but its mostly just saying look what we stock, come and get it if you want it, no clicky clicky payee option........and tbh if you have the ability to get to a store and your spending more than a few hundred, then you should go demo it.......if you dont want to, then tbh why are you spending a few hundred? you might as well just spend £50.....you dont buy a car without a test drive, even if its £400......if you do, well, tbh thats a silly risk, if the car breaks down your £400 out of pocket, and if your reduced to £400 cars then it would be a big loss to you.....

oh and i'll repeat it again, if you cheapen things too much that are supposed to be a luxury, then a lot more people will own them, which means when there are problems its only going to take you a lot longer to get them sorted.....oh and for a laugh, compare the two return for repair procedures..

Internet procedure:
1) fault happens, fire off email saying what the problem is...
2) immediate 2798 automated response saying your problem will be dealt with in due course
3) next day (if lucky) receive generic email pointing you to the FAQ/forums on the website with a footnote saying if this still does not solve your problem, please reply to this email quoting this code (long, complex reference code)
4) spend till the next day checking FAQ's.....
5) nothing changes, fire off the reply email quoting ref code...
6) automated reply stating you will be contacted by email soon with an RMA or instructions of some kind
7) 3 days later receive email with instructions for address to send the item to
8) arrange for courier collection possibly at your cost, wait till next day for courier to collect
9) courier website service shows parcel arrive at website or manufacturers repair depot 2 days later.
10) wait.................
11a) if lucky a week later receive email saying problem fixed, item on its way back by courier, you will be contacted to arrange day for delivery
11b) or still waiting......
12a) if lucky package comes back within a few days when you can be in, problem fixed.
12b) package turns up, nothings been done......for those who remember coding in Basic 1.0 on an Amstrad......Goto Line 1

b&m procedure:
1) phone up shop, explain problem to shop assistant.
2) assistant either gives you advice on phone within 20 minutes as to how to solve, or if not says bring it in to shop.
3) next day you have available you drop it in to the shop, either they work out whats wrong and you take it home, or they say it needs repairing and has to go back to manufacturer.
4a) if lucky your home with working kit
4b) if unlucky kit goes back to manufacturer, shop sends it off for you if still in warranty, no charge to you, they will phone you when they get it back.
5) if still waiting you can phone shop, they can phone depot and then phone you back with update....get it back soon as it takes to repair, may take as long as whole procedure for net, but unlikely and even if it does it was a lot less hassle overall as you deal with a particular person, not one of a dozen mail-monkeys in a small web office somewhere who have no idea what it is you own, they just choose the appropriate reply to your query.


oh, and sony used to make some damn nice equipment many years ago, but sadly they got greedy, they figured they owned enough of the market to cheapen the stuff they made and still sell it at a higher price, thats taken its toll, so now they selling the stuff at cheap prices as well........but there are other people out there who can do that too, and its hurting sony, they are lucky for their console and their ventures in to the music business, without those two things i doubt Sony would still be here, it would be owned by Philips or someone like that.........such a shame tho, i do hope Denon never go that route.....

The USA market is a totally different animal from our own, those that dont live in the massive cities such as New York or LA obviously wont always have the chance to demo, that fair enough, but i bet you'll find most of those in the cities will demo stuff, lifes already expensive for them compared to their central state buddies, they aint gonna blow cash on something they might not like unless they stupidly rich.........over here tho, c'mon, you'd be hard pressed not to find a town close enough to you thats big enough to support a hifi shop......and altho i agree we shouldnt be paying as much as we do for certain things, i do agree the shops should be given a break against the e-tailers because they do give so much more.....as helicon says, keep the over £1,000 (not a fixed figure ok, just a rough guideline) in the shops that can demo etc (remember, you can still phone them up and ask for a home demo), and then with the stuff under, i'd say let the shops have it a little cheaper than the e-tailers, they still need to sell some of this stuff to get a little daily bread, and if they can sell it at the same price as the e-tailer then its all fair to the consumer, you can be lazy and buy it online, or go to the shop and have more service for your own time and effort......but at least that way the people who give those wanting the true high fidelity equipment the chance to get the right equipment can afford to stay in business.....and turn some profit....i mean, you dont think a business is there to help you do you?...lol...
.....and dont forget, plenty of arguements for internet only selling ending up costing just as much as b&m shops once the shops are gone....and very little chance of decent, fast and reliable service either.......especially once everyone is on the net buying.....its hard enough getting through to a call centre, at least there they do try to keep waiting times down within budget, with email they can keep you waiting days and not care...lol

Knyght_byte

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

oh, and a little extra on the USA thing, there market is SO much bigger than here for this kind of goods, they revel in it at all living levels, so of course its cheaper, same with computers...........over here the market is a lot smaller with most people just wanting a TV, a DVD recorder and mebbe a little dinky 5.1 set from Dixons......yes the shops have a markup, and yes the manufacturers have a markup, but then they have much higher outputs as well, smaller market still needs basic office infrastructure, depots, warehouses, etc, and we all know how much the government adds taxes and rates and various business charges on just to fund the various economic crisis (ie the NHS and Immigration..lol)........running a business in the USA can be a lot cheaper due to the overheads......why do you think so many companies like to break in to the american market? if they work they work big, if they fail its not always a bank breaker.......over here if it works it works ok, if it fails it costs you all you have quite often...lol

Knyght_byte

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Sorry but some of that reads as pure speculation and drivel at the same time some truth.

Not every etailer is the same, i can pic up the phone and talk to many etailers, more so if they have a B&M store. I have called my etailer with an issue before and the next morning the courier is here picking up the faulty item, that kinda screws your argument. you can not lob all etailers into the same pile and generalise, yes some are pants, some are truly outstanding.
I could not make up my mind on one product, the guy shipped it to me and said if i was not happy i could just ship it back, a home demo if you like. so that's not bad service is it?
Why should B&M dealers be given a break, total crap, business is business a price is a price. if you can get it cheaper then do so. Some of my bests deals have come from retailers WHO ALSO HAVE B&M stores, why should they be punished for that? total rubbish

There's nothing wrong with B&M as with retailers some are good some are pants, i just dont see any point B&M and there whining. Business changes, like a lot of manufacturing going over to china etc. You cant stop it, change will effect every sector. Britain is almost always slow at adapting to modern markets.
Yes the USA market is a lot bigger, so quantities will be ordered in larger sizes hence lowering the price, but there online service is very sound and as said you can buy anything you want including the premium models. However they are more flexible as regards returns, if you are not happy they will take it back with zero fuss as long as you dont exceed the 7day period. so you do get a couple of days demo time. you may in some cases pay a small restocking fee but it works out worth it.
having a demo at shop does not guarantee you will be happy, how many people have bought a product and the Issues only start to show up week or 2 down the road once the wow factor goes.

Im quite happy to spend £400 pound with out seeing the product in action, i admit i have a good feel for whats good and bad. I spent £7000 on a projector i had not seen in action before, turned out ok, i had done a good bit of research ONLINE and it was a premium model from a good make.
Just because you may need to demo everything doesnt mean every one else does, i just dont have that kind of time. if it was truly bad it would of gone straight back within the 7days you have or i would of sold it on.
and would my environment replicate the demo room? a demo is after all just a loose guide.

P.S i meant that in a friendly type of way, please dont take offense, i just tend to speak my mind sometimes

If B&M shops offer an online service in addition to there fixed shop this discussion ends right now. You get the best off both worlds, but perhaps wont be able to maintain inflated margins. Some of the most successful etailers have B&M stores with demo facilities, why is that always ignored?

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandley
However they are more flexible as regards returns, if you are not happy they will take it back with zero fuss as long as you dont exceed the 7day period. so you do get a couple of days demo time you may in some cases pay a small restocking fee but it works out worth it.
Would you pay £700-1000 for someone to restock the projector if you didn't like it?!!

Quote:
having a demo at shop does not garentee you will be happy
EVERYTHING i have purchased has sounded better, or in the case of a visual product, looked better, at home. A demo in store allows you to evaluate, let's say, a group of speakers in one place and choose your preference. Once home and they're settled in, if they sounded different or just wrong, you will be able to work out from that how the other speakers would sound and choose the speakers that would suit.

Quote:
Im quite happy to spend £400 pound with out seeing the product in action, i admit i have a good feel for whats good and bad. I spent £7000 on a projector i had not seen in action before, turned out ok, i had done a good bit of research ONLINE and it was a premium mode from a good makel.
In the mortal words of the late Hunter S.Thompson, "crazy b*st*rd"!! (and i mean that in a nice way ) There is no way on earth i would, or expect anyone else, to buy a projector they had NEVER seen working before!! As good as most projectors are at that price point, there are big differences in their picture quality and presentation. If a customer walked into the store and asked for a £7k projector and he told me he was buying it 'blind', i would refuse to sell it without giving him a demonstration first. The new Sony projector at £7k looks promising, but there's no way i'd just buy one. The manufacturer doesn't guarantee a top class projector.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandley
If B&M shops offer an online service in addition to there fixed shop this discussion ends right now. You get the best off both worlds, but perhaps wont be able to maintain inflated margins. Some of the most successful etailers have B&M stores with demo facilities, why is that always ignored?
The "best of both worlds" only comes into play when you're talking about a retailer who sells his entire instore products online. But what i'm saying is that dealers with products like Cyrus, Naim, Sugden, Linn, Rega etc, won't put those products on the net anyway. So as far as a 'specialist retailer goes, you might see their products online, but you won't be able to buy them.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
The "best of both worlds" only comes into play when you're talking about a retailer who sells his entire instore products online. But what i'm saying is that dealers with products like Cyrus, Naim, Sugden, Linn, Rega etc, won't put those products on the net anyway. So as far as a 'specialist retailer goes, you might see their products online, but you won't be able to buy them.
Understood but that needs to change, if someone wants just to click and buy let them, if they need to demo let them, dont dictate what a consumer can or cannot do....we dont like that. I would have bought some of those makes if they were available online. If there not, i dont tend to bother.
which is a shame for those companies, im not saying they should be cheaper just available to buy. that perhaps should be the compromise that needs to be reached. I dont always buy the cheapest price online if a site i trust or know to be trusted is a little dearer, the issue is not wholely cheap internet prices but internet availability, does that make sense?

As for the restocking issue, here its still a problem in some places but in canada they are much more forgiving, you dont pay anywhere near $700 or $1000 dollers if your not happy and that if you go past the 7day distance shopping return rules.
I did actually mean that as a failing of some UK etailers, so i was on your side with that one

I must say as its kind of been mentioned but i did order my last motorcycle without testriding it, and its the best Six grand i ever spent

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
32E8
Originally Posted by gandley
Understood but that needs to change, if someone wants just to click and buy let them, if they need to demo let them, dont dictate what a consumer can or cannot do....we dont like that.
I don't think any decent retailer would let anyone just order and take home a £7k projector without seeing it first. If for any reason the customer didn't like that projector, it would be coming straight back to them, a £7k refund, and a very expensive 2nd hand piece of stock. Only the greedy, uncaring retailers would take your money in that way. That's possibly a good way to find a good dealer. Walk in and tell him you want to order a £7k projector. If he says "ok, how do you want to pay", walk straight back out

Quote:
I would have bought some of those makes if they were available online. If there not, i dont tend to bother.
which is a shame for those companies, im not saying they should be cheaper just available to buy. that perhaps should be the compromise that needs to be reached.
So you won't buy anything from those manufacturers because they aren't available online?!!

And once again....would you pay a 10-15% restocking fee?

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

not unless i think its worth while. I just dont have the need to demo everything, its not crucial to my lifestyle. I dont like to have the polish taken off things.
I like to plug and go and see what hits me.

like i said i bought my motorcycle without testriding, i loved the look of it and just ordered it, 6K later and im wheeling down the road. 1yr later i will do the same again. theres somthing magic to that.
Same with my pio 505 plasma, looks great, the reviews were good forums were upbeat, Ordered.

that's not to say i have never demoed anything or test driven anything.
When i bought the BMW i spent a long and hard time looking at every detail, took a few different models out for a drive etc.

For my second projector(sim2 now sold) i did do a few demos, marantz S4, sim2 300E and the optoma H79. they had all 3 in this shop in Vancouver.
So somtimes im fussy.....

I just dont see the logic holding back products from the internet. Not when statistics show us crazy people are more than willing to take the so called risk.

Its not just me, many of my friend do exactly the same.Some are even worse than me. My close friend blew £35,000 on a car he had never drivin. Just went to the dealer and ordered it, but thats an extreme case and im not that brave.

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

so if i walked into a B&M store and said heres 7K i want a marantz S4 please, and the guy says "do you want to see it first" and i say "no thanks i`ll just take it now", are you saying he will say "no, please leave my shop"?.

You as well as i know he will make that sale.

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

I'm not saying he'll say "please leave my shop", i'm saying the unscrupulous dealers out there will just ask how you want to pay. The dealer who likes to look after their customers by giving them the right advice (and limiting the possibility of expensive 2nd hand items to clear) will want to make sure you are serious about the purchase, making the right choice, and not acting upon information given to you by unqualified people. At the end of the day, your mistake is the dealers problem. And it's a big problem if he struggles to sell ?7k projectors, let alone 2nd hand ?7k ones.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by potshot
Where do you get £600 for a top end graphics card, you don't mean $600 geeWcee the price is closer to £450. But the average high end card with 256MB GeForce 7800GTX is just over £300.
If you can get me the new 512MB GTX card for £450 then be my guest. Like I said, 'top end' mate. I'd like two while your at it

geeWcee

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

geeWcee

I have sent you a private message regarding the graphic cards so not to go off topic on this thread.

Pot

potshot

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

I see your point with NET only companies and i see that they offer no real service but to ship units and i do have a dislike for some of them.
But its in the industrys interest to not tarnish all with the same brush. I have been dealing over the net with some companies for the last 10 yrs. My first dvd player came from Leconcepts (online) they also have shopfronts(which for me has always added a sense of security that they wont be gone over night) and good for them they are still going. AVland is also another good example of internet trading done right.
From all of these you get excellent advice, install service etc and a keen price.
The avindustry should endorse these firms not restrict them, at least then you would have some approved internet outleats that would perhaps make it harder for the cowboys to get a grip and damage the industry with there underhand tactics.

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theotherside
As I have said before, and I am sure Mr Sevenoaks would agree, there is nothing wrong with net selling or net buying. The problem is these companies that start up, run for a couple of years selling below cost, the cash flow dries up the manufacturer is left with an unpaid bill, the consumer is left with no net retailer to take any problems to and the B&M companies who are doing the job properly are left without the customer for maybe 5+ years. It is these companies that are damaging the trade. Looking at neils site he seems to be doing a very nice job, it is a nice well laid out site with some good products and he obviously knows his stuff. If you look at his prices they are all either normal retail or just below because they don't have to hold the customers hand. He is a member of RETRA and CEDIA and is just trying to supplement his business, probably dealing with people who either don't want to go out to a shop or don't have one locally selling these types of products. Personally I have no problem competing with this kind of business as they are just offering an alternative and not doing huge damage to the industry before pissing off to do something else.

Unfortunately it is very hard to separate the type of business neil is running and those of other companies using the Capital/Unbeatable model. I have no problem with our suppliers dealing with the type of business Neil is running but do with the parasite companies that make up the majority of net businesses.
I guess nobody wants to see cowboy or poorly planned businesses anywhere and you get just as many that set up in shops as on the internet. There are numerous established internet sellers just as there are highstreet sellers and to tarnish internet sellers with a brush that says they are all fly by night cowboys who are here today, gone tomorrow is wrong.

To say the vast majority of net firms are parasite companies is nonesense and would be as valid as me saying that the majority of AV Specialist shops are just commission driven con men who only give the best advice for their profits. There are good and bad retailers on the High Street and on the Net, end of story.

CAS FAN

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandley
I see your point with NET only companies and i see that they offer no real service but to ship units and i do have a dislike for some of them.
But its in the industrys interest to not tarnish all with the same brush. I have been dealing over the net with some companies for the last 10 yrs. My first dvd player came from Leconcepts (online) they also have shopfronts(which for me has always added a sense of security that they wont be gone over night) and good for them they are still going. AVland is also another good example of internet trading done right.
From all of these you get excellent advice, install service etc and a keen price.
The avindustry should endorse these firms not restrict them, at least then you would have some approved internet outleats that would perhaps make it harder for the cowboys to get a grip and damage the industry with there underhand tactics.
That has always been my gripe, I have never based my company around selling as many boxes and as cheap as possible, I have always argued with the manufacturers that it is them that caused the problem in the first place, if a manufacturer can't have tighter leash on it's distribution then any man and is dog ca become a dealer, then no wonder prices will fall, good for the consumer for the short term but most certainly not long term, as has been proven.

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandley
I think that is a little unfair given the fact neil proboly feels more ****** than most. His Business is expanding, that means he is pushing the AV industry forward.

This situation really blew up because of the letter that mr Sevenoakes wrote in fear of his own market. The result of which some internet sellers with a shop and DEMO rooms were told by some suppliers that they could no longer sale there products if they continued with an E shop. Now in Neils case he has a couple of B&M shops with demo facilities (thus not in line with mr seven oaks reasonings that e-tail would mean the end of B&W stores with demo rooms etc) So why should he then be forced to drop some lines if he can offer everything sevenoakes can at a fair price and via the internet as well as at his store, and you can go see the product in action too.
Its a contradiction. its so obvious that mr sevenoakes said to manufactures comply or we drop your line. Its more sad that some gave into this pressure when they should help the new breed flourish. That would move the industry forward.
So The likes of Neil are on the receiving end of this, but only because they took advantage of an opportunity to expand there market and adapt a formulated industry
id really like to read a copy of this letter - please could you tell me where i can see the text of it?

sainthalo

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sainthalo
id really like to read a copy of this letter - please could you tell me where i can see the text of it?
I'll see if I can find a copy, it's Paul basically threatening or should I say blackmailing manufacturers, which is odd, as he can't sell on the internet so what does it have to do with him

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntslik
I'll see if I can find a copy, it's Paul basically threatening or should I say blackmailing manufacturers, which is odd, as he can't sell on the internet so what does it have to do with him
Thanks Neil, It sounds like it will be a fascinating read - the ramblings of a big fat greedy pig who wont let any leaner little piggies with curlier wurlier tails eat at the trough. Ahemm.. no offence to anyone but it does sound like it will be a very childish letter!

Please try your best to find it! If you dont have a scanner PM me and i will give you my pocket pc fax number and i will then post it here.

sainthalo

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandley
I think that is a little unfair given the fact neil proboly feels more ****** than most. His Business is expanding, that means he is pushing the AV industry forward.
We shall have to agrere to disagree on this then.

I merely posted (as a retailer and potential customer) in reply to his question about how to push his company onwards with constructive criticism.

I feel one way he can do this is to be less rude and arrogant in his manner.

As a retailer i think you should never mock anyone else.

Adrenochrome.

Adrenochrome

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenochrome
As a retailer i think you should never mock anyone else.
Very true especially on a public forum your potential customers are reading...

Hope a certain retailer in particular is reading this!

sainthalo

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Dont get him started again.

I dont have link for the letter now, i thought it was in the early pages of thread but cant see it now. But it read as "throwing toys out of pram time" with some acceptable concerns taken to the very limit for effect.

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenochrome
We shall have to agrere to disagree on this then.

I merely posted (as a retailer and potential customer) in reply to his question about how to push his company onwards with constructive criticism.

I feel one way he can do this is to be less rude and arrogant in his manner.

As a retailer i think you should never mock anyone else.

Adrenochrome.
Fair enough, i do see your point. I guess its hard not to get drawn into battle somtimes when your being ranted at.

Neil slap your wrist

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Welcome to 1997.

http://www.competition-commission.or...ext/402c14.pdf

By the way, if SevenOaks doesn't want to stock brands that supply to online box shifters, why is that blackmail ?
The brands can choose whether they want to deal with SevenOaks or not, or are we suggesting that without exposure in b&ms they wouldn't shift as much product online ?

gringottsdirect

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAS FAN
Someone who is out in the open and transparent about who they are and who they work for will always get more credability from people, even if what they say isn't perhaps correct.
That just sums up these forums doesn't it?! Full of people who don't necessarily know what they're talking about, sometimes no idea whatsoever, but because we know who they are, it's ok for them to tar the minds of the 'sheep' on here that believe anything that's posted. Here lies one of the problems facing retailers.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

I have tried to find this letter from mr sevenoaks but can't find it. The link earlier in this thead doesn't work now.

If anybody has got a copy of the letter I would be grateful if a link could be posted or a copy sent to me by PM.


Pot

potshot

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gringottsdirect
Welcome to 1997.

http://www.competition-commission.or...ext/402c14.pdf

By the way, if SevenOaks doesn't want to stock brands that supply to online box shifters, why is that blackmail ?
The brands can choose whether they want to deal with SevenOaks or not, or are we suggesting that without exposure in b&ms they wouldn't shift as much product online ?
No its the case that sevenoaks is demanding manufactures stop supplying etailers or it will cut there lines from its range. For the more expensive brands that need demo space this is a problem

gandley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sainthalo
err helicon... how exactly is the avforums.com one of the biggest problems facing the AV industry??? Are you the salesman afraid of consumer knowledge - you cant BS us consumers as easily???

The last 15 years i have dealt with all sorts of customers, from poor on a budget to the insanely rich, from the arrogant to some of the nicest people on the planet, made a lot of friends, and have received many letters of thanks for the service i have provided them. I have played all roles from Salesman to Manager, and i have enjoyed the work thoroughly as i am a hi-fi and av enthusiast.

I never BS anyone, as this just creates future problems when the customer realises it's not what they really wanted or doesn't do what they want it to. I've seen it so many times before. I'm here to give the best advice i can and make sure people are happy with their purchases.

And with some of the advice i have witnessed on these forums, my point of forums like this being ONE of the problems facing the industry still stands.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Polly
Ekko Star,

If you think the dealer base has not already been undermined then I think posting any more replies on this thread is a total waste of time...
Despite what you say, the major brands (Denon, Marantz, Mission, KEF, B&W, Yamaha, Pioneer etc) do not, to my knowledge, sell direct - which manufacturers are you refering to (other than Panasonic and Pure digital?)
Well that sounds a complete contradiction. It's been undermined and yet your choice of major brands don't do web ????

I have said *some* have that includes Panasonic and Sony, who I would consider major in some sort of way.

Have to say can't understand your stance at all. You're correct you're not making your point clear. You say you are a B&M retailer and you want to push sales internet back to the manufacturer rather than some *chimp in a bedroom with his site*. Why on earth aren't you pushing to expanding your own business that way ? Sounds more than a bit half cocked to me

B&M = Bricks & Mortar

Ekko Star

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekko Star
Well that sounds a complete contradiction. It's been undermined and yet your choice of major brands don't do web ????
Denon, Marantz, Mission, Yamaha and Pioneer are all available from internet retailers, as you must know, but it is not possible to buy these on-line from the manufacturers website, which is the point under discussion - are you deliberately mis-interpreting what I'm saying, or just stupid?


I have said *some* have that includes Panasonic and Sony, who I would consider major in some sort of way.

Panasonic and Sony are giants of the mass market industry - specialist retailers are not being undermined by these 2 brands, as, by and large, they are not sold by specialists, but by mass market chains like Comet etc - I thought this discussion was about the impact of internet retailing on specialist hifi/ av dealers, NOT Dixons?

Have to say can't understand your stance at all. You're correct you're not making your point clear. You say you are a B&M retailer and you want to push sales internet back to the manufacturer rather than some *chimp in a bedroom with his site*. Why on earth aren't you pushing to expanding your own business that way ? Sounds more than a bit half cocked to me
I'm challenging the idea that the only alternative to B&M's are internet retailers for low to mid-range products - surely you can see that? We have added a small internet trading arm to our core retail business, but I want to explore the validity of 'independant internet retailers' vs manufacturers just selling direct.

B&M = Bricks & Mortar
Thanks

Pretty Polly

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Elementalist,

The cost of a demo is more than just the time - the dealer has to buy in the pj to use as a demo unit, and pay rates, electric etc on the property, and that's what adds to the cost. Can't you see the similarities with the car salesman?

If there was nowhere to demo these big money items as sales were only internet based, then waht would you do? There's a lot to be said for having a dealer look after you when things go wrong as well.

I understand your need to validate your actions and I do understand your point of view regarding larger retailers, but do spare a thought for the dealers out there who can't buy in large quantites and offer cheaper prices. To use them and not give them the business despite having helped you is hardly ethical IMHO.

When I demo'd my first pj, I had an internet cost at hand, but a demo was essential. I spoke with the dealer and we agread on a price beforehand so that if I liked it, I would buy it - If it was too much I would not have lied and wasted his time getting a demo with him. I had no qualms paying extra for the service he was offering.

Second time around he offered me a good price which was still more than an internet price, but hardly worth worrying about considering the cost of the pj and the demo with numerous other projectors. My 3rd pj was such a good price I can't actually tell you and I more than got my money back from the little extra I paid previously.

Gary.

Gary Lightfoot

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Thanks Pretty Polly, nice tone of reply & welcome to the friendly forums

The title of this thread is *The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?* and the first post makes it quite clear it encompasses pretty much the whole shabangg.

So no, it's not just about a specialists point of view, little bit more expansive than that.

Ekko Star

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekko Star
Thanks Pretty Polly, nice tone of reply & welcome to the friendly forums

The title of this thread is *The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?* and the first post makes it quite clear it encompasses pretty much the whole shabangg.

So no, it's not just about a specialists point of view, little bit more expansive than that.
Hmmm, interesting point of view - so when was the last time you went into a mass market chain like Dixons or Currys and asked for a private demonstration, advise on installation, on-site repair etc etc.
I don't think were debating Currys future here...Stuart, please let me know if I'm off target.

Pretty Polly

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

When I demo'd my first pj, I had an internet cost at hand, but a demo was essential. I spoke with the dealer and we agread on a price beforehand so that if I liked it, I would buy it - If it was too much I would not have lied and wasted his time getting a demo with him. I had no qualms paying extra for the service he was offering.

At last somebody who does not want to abuse a shop and be open with them.

eviljohn2

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffer
At last somebody who does not want to abuse a shop and be open with them.
I've never abused a hifi shop. In fact I've never even been into one as most of my kit is second hand.

eviljohn2

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Polly
how difficult is it really to put up a web shop site, populate it with 4000 product images/ descriptions/ discount prices, hold zero stock, and then wait for your e-mail notifications from your secure server of orders coming in? Where is the 'value added' here?
I have two questions here which will emphasise the whole point

1. Name me one internet only dealer in our industry

2. Why don't you sell in the internet

I will quarantee you your answers will show a completely different understanding, I asked Helicon 4 times why he doesn't sell on the internet and he couldn't answer me once, but i know exactly the reason.

Pretty polly your starting to sound very much like Helicon, with the same blinkered views and i therefore can only assume you also work for the same franchised based company

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

If running internet sites was so ridiculously easy I still can't understand why any retailer would wish to turn up their nose to the business ?

Frankly it's not that easy, as in everything there are good and bad in both and you have to become established at it. Some people really do vet out internet based ventures to see if they are reliable, have good customer service, prompt delivery, good communication etc before using them. Just as in any business bad e-tailers won't get used or advocated much either.

Some of the sponsors of these forums clearly demonstrate excellent support whether goods bought from their shop or off their internet site or over the phone. It's simply another avenue that's there for the taking and you'd be mad or blinkered to miss it.

Ekko Star

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekko Star
If running internet sites was so ridiculously easy I still can't understand why any retailer would wish to turn up their nose to the business ?

Frankly it's not that easy, as in everything there are good and bad in both and you have to become established at it. Some people really do vet out internet based ventures to see if they are reliable, have good customer service, prompt delivery, good communication etc before using them. Just as in any business bad e-tailers won't get used or advocated much either.

Some of the sponsors of these forums clearly demonstrate excellent support whether goods bought from their shop or off their internet site or over the phone. It's simply another avenue that's there for the taking and you'd be mad or blinkered to miss it.
Well said but let's not forget one of the the critical issues here, all of us who run a website own very successful stores as well, it's just simply another form of medium we sell from, the only people who are moaning are the likes of Sevenoaks because they can't trade on the internet....

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot
Elementalist,
The cost of a demo is more than just the time - the dealer has to buy in the pj to use as a demo unit, and pay rates, electric etc on the property, and that's what adds to the cost. Can't you see the similarities with the car salesman?
Gary.
The dealer has a property as a showroom and stock on display whether he does demos or not. Unless you want to extend a walk unto his showroom and walking out as morally corrupt a demo pretty much comes down to the time.
Sorry, Gary, but unless you can explain why a demo means I should spend ?700 more than I need I am going to happily throw the 'moral corruption' argument right back at any salesman that has the guts to use it.
As a frequent internet shopper and someone who's familiar with finding reviews and using forums like this to get expert advice on a purchase I am constantly coming across instances where friends and family are talked into bad deals in a showroom.
We have a circular argument, here, so I'll give up Good luck with the retailing!

elementalist2

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

?700 seems an excessive price difference for just a projector, but I think that was for a whole package and not just the pj wasn't it?

I myself have bought stuff from the net after reading reviews from magazines and owners on forums, and there's nothing wrong with that.

You mention all retailers having a shop though, but you buy from the internet, and those sellers don't always have shops, hence their cheaper prices and inability to give a demo. If they had demo facilities no doubt their prices would be dearer - they have to pay for the shop's overheads and demo facilities.

Even so, you still don't want to accept that you're getting something for nothing and possibly even by deception if they think they may get a sale from it, and if you take the demo without intending to buy for the person doing the demo but from the internet instead, then it's unfair on the person giving the demo. Same scenario with the car example. You're using people.

Large retailers aren't the best place for getting advice (or demos tbh), and I hate those places myself, so I don't go there for advice or a demo.

Quote:
We have a circular argument, here, so I'll give up Good luck with the retailing!
I don't think you can accept that there are some people out there who try to be ethical and to further justify your actions you have to call me a retailer! I think that proves the point.

No, I'm not a retailer, just an enthusiast who enjoys front projection and what that entails. I think if you read my posts in the DLP forum you'll see that. Another clue would be that I'd have the word 'retailer' in my description like ntslik does.

Gary.

Gary Lightfoot

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Holy Moly pudding and pie, what a long thread!!

I gave up at around page 8 and fast forwarded to here .

I am lucky enough to have found a superb high street retailer who also deals with internet sales through this very forum, in fact, they are one of the forum sponsers (www.avland.co.uk), they, along with the other sponsers (peter tyson and AV Sales being two that spring to mind straight away) provide sterling service, and I am more than willing to pay a little extra than the online price for their friendly advice and demo facilities.

I will basically ask a high street retailer what their best price is, I will show them the internet price I've found too, if they at least attempt to play ball and compete with the internet price (even if they are unable to match it) I will give them my business, as long as they are not way off the mark of the net price, and as what was said earlier in a thread, I'd agree on a price first before taking the demo, so I do not waste the dealers time.

The support and advice I get from sticking to one dealer is great, they learn what your tastes are and will always keep you in the loop when it comes to updates, new products and the like. Sticking with one dealer also gives one the opportunity to get better deals and in some cases, deals that better the net price.

My advice, if you find a good dealer, stick with them, they will see you right. I only turn to online retailers if the savings will be massive, but then, I wouldn't waste the dealers time in requesting a demo of that item.

I have had very poor experiences in three specialist hi fi shops, Sevenoaks being one, Superfi being another and last but certainly not least....Richer Sounds, the service recieved at these stores has pushed me towards the net and the dealer mentioned before. I do feel that to go into a dealer with the sole intention of just to get a demo and not buy from them is very cheeky, stop it .

I do say death to the uber retailers though, dixons, pcworld, comet et al, awful, awful places to shop.

Kazman

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
My advice, if you find a good dealer, stick with them, they will see you right. I only turn to online retailers if the savings will be massive
Agree with you Kazman,
My experience with sevenoaks,staines,will give them a very helpful staff,had a problem with a sub,they replaced it with a brand new one ,even offered to drop it round,they will get my business again, all down to customer care ,just thought i would give them

pave

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

I also agree with Kazman.

I was fortunate enough to find a very experienced and very knowledgable dealer who is also open and honest. He runs a small AV business but the service and advice etc is unbelievable! Anyone who buys from this guy has struck gold IMHO and the little extra you pay him is worth the peace of mind knowing you will have excellent support.

Gary.

Gary Lightfoot

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Nice to see someone sees the other side Muffer .....most 'punters', to use someone elses phrase, don't see those eventualities. The only thing they see is ?4000 being paid into the dealers account and thinking they're pocketing half that.

Do customers find the word 'punter' offensive? Would just like to know, i would have thought that they would myself.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

It's ok Helicon you don't disappoint me.

Sounds like you deal with a very niche, affluent market with a returning cutomer base. Good on you and I hope your business stays 3E38 that way. If it isn't your business and you don't class yourself as a salesman may I ask what it is you actually do there if you don't intend to conclude with a sale ? I'm intrigued.

I'm certainly not saying that B&M specialists are on the verge of dying off immediately. There is a niche market for certain levels of products that will always attract that sort of client. However as margins get ever squeezed, you have to do the volume to make up for it. Volume and niche don't always tend to go together for a long time.

Ekko Star

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

But at the same time we are selling of the net, and doing very well out of it.

We are having to do alot more work for the same profit. I don't mind a hard days graft. Make the day go quicker!

But the people who are let down are the customers who do want to come in and listen and have advice etc.

The net has made us so busy we have less time for them so they do not get the level of service we would like to provide.

I know some may read this and say, well employ someone else. Well we are not making extra profit.

You could also say do less net business. We can't afford to.

Catch 22

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekko Star
It's ok Helicon you don't disappoint me.

Volume and niche don't always tend to go together for a long time.
Agreed....

A better description of myself would be advisor. I will give the help needed, answer any questions i need to, demo the kit people are interested in, but at the end i won't say "how would you like to pay?" as a closer.

ABC - Always Be Closing - if you've seen Glengarry Glenross that'll mean something to you. A salesman would, i don't.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Muffer - i know what you mean. It's ok if you can sell products on the internet, but there are those who can't offer certain products on the internet due to dealer agreements.

Anyway, i'm off to watch a few films......got my drinks....my munchies....laters!

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffer
But at the same time we are selling of the net, and doing very well out of it.We are having to do alot more work for the same profit.
Catch 22
Well that does sound a bit contradictory but I can see the point you are trying to make.

Thing is this is more about the products you are selling and the business you are in. ie generic non-differentiated AV equipment. If you are not a sole dealership then you are selling the same box as Joe Bloggs down the road. Service, image and price are generally the defining factors and for many even they are not much to choose from nowadays !

You can either make a lot of money off of little items or a little money off of lots of items. If you're smart you'd do both. Your choice

The one question you have to ask is if you didn't have the internet and volume side of the business. Would the sales you make via B&M side (even though at a higher margin) continue to leave you with a viable business proposition ?

Ekko Star

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
A dealer will narrow the choice down to the best stuff he has at the price. Due to lower margins, we can't keep as much as we used to And yes, you will promote what you have.

I must admit, i'm no fan of the Wharfedale Evo's myself. Wharfedale generally make cheap speakers and overprice them so that dealers can show a big reduction on the RRP. Everyone wins!
When the Evo's turned up, it could've been their turning point. Nice wood veneer, serious looking spikes, nice back panel. Looked as though they'd gone to town on the range. But turned out they were just Diamond's in a nice box. Don't get me wrong, they're probably the best speakers W'dale have made for years, but how they got the reviews they did, i don't know. But that goes for a number of products. If somebody likes them fair enough, enjoy. But there are much better sounding speakers out there for the same money.
I agree, don't ignore something you don't like yourself, someone may love them. If they do and they're happy and they've heard enough alternatives to make that decision, fine.
Hey remember it's all down to opinions you may think there are better sounding speakers for the price but that's to your ears. I don't know about reviews as I had not even heard about the Wharfedales before I brought them The only tool needed to sell them to me was my ears!

That's the whole problem with Dealers they seem to think that having dealt with something for years make them an expert on what people should or should not like. Your statement "But there are much better sounding speakers out there for the same money." is clearly nonsense I listened to maybe 6 different sets during my day at the dealers all through my own DPA pre and powers and my Meridian Transport and MF DAC. I had originally gone to listen to some B&W speakers but they were rubbish IMHO I also took my TDLs to do the comparisons and the only speakers that I really liked apart from the Wharfedales were a set of ProAcs at nearly ?1800 and completley out of my price range. Now I'm not saying I got the best pair of ?600 floorstanders in the business but with the speakers I listened to they were the best for my ears and paired with my equipment so I went away happy with my lot. I will be honest here and say that in my opinion the only real item of HiFi you really should not buy without listening to first is speakers. In all fairness buying a Plasma without looking at it is brave decision.

Andy_Lee

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
Anyway, i'm off to watch a few films......got my drinks....my munchies....laters!
Ah that is where you have been going wrong, you should shoot the person who showed you that sales technique

Actually, if you are currently gainfully employed in the industry, shouldn't you be earning a crust and not posting here during office hours?? If I caught any of my lot on the net as much as this I'd be asking some serious questions......

Oh and thanks Neil for some honest answers to my post this morning even if you didn't really answer the last one..... I also believe that Gordon and Joe's last posts had much merit.

Helicon, take some of the advice offered before its too late for you mate.....

GrahamMG

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Can't say I have had time to read all 25 pages of replies so apologies if these points have been made already.

Many of us don't have specialist dealers close by. It's Curry's or Comet.

At Curry's you can sometimes by a TV on-line cheaper than in-store. So I don't see any problem in utilising the stores facilities and then walking out and buying from the same retailer on-line. I would give the store the chance to match the on-line price but if they didn't then I certainly would not pay the store price. Reason? The store price must be inflated if the same company can sell the same set for less on the internet.

Now you may say that the store has overheads but what about this.

I just bought a wireless router for the PC form PC-World. If you go on the PC-World web site many items are cheaper on the web than in store BUT they will let you collect from the store at the Internet price!

It is called collect@store. My router cost me ?70 (came with a USB adaptor for the other PC) as opposed to ?80 in store price. I could have got the same item from eBuyer for 3 quid less but judged ?3 worth the ease of collecting locally from a local shop. Worked like a dream with the item waiting for me at customer services.

So I walked out of the shop having paid ?70 and anyone else who bought the exact same thing from the same shop would have paid ?80 had they just walked in off the street. How do they justify that?

Now on an item of this value had my only option been ?80 locally a ?13 price sifference would have meant buying off the net elsewhere but PC-World "won" because of the Internet. They will still be making a profit or would not do it.

What this and the fact you can buy TV's from Currys on line cheaper than in-store says to me is that there can be a lot of mark-up on in store prices that are not down to the overheads.

I think experiences like this reinforce the perception that in-store prices are a rip off when the same retailers sell the same goods for less on-line.

Dave

Dune

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Hi All, I just could not read this thread without chucking my thoughts in.

Firstly - What is occuring with online sales is not 'perhaps the biggest A/V industry problem' - What it is, is a problem for high street retailers with no marketing plan to compete - Which is tough - If they can't compete - fool them for not having launched their online shop 5 years ago.

Secondly - If some retailers want to try manipulating the system by trying to say they won't stock products - Fool them - If I check their store - and no product is there - I'll go elsewhere - and the shop loses out. Tough - and tough for Paul Lee-Kemp and Sevenoaks - who has just lost me as a customer as he may well not stock my wanted prodcut due to politics!!

Thirdly - Highly trained staff maybe in some shops - I have recently completed a consumer test asking questions on a Korg and Sony products to over 20 high street stores around the UK - A lot of retailers were useless and could not answer my questions.

In my opinion - the people/businesses worried about online sales - are obviously worried there business stratagy may not see them in business or doing as well.

I advise them to -
1) sell online and compete back like good old fashioned supply and demand.
2) train their staff better
3) stop trying to play games with manufacturers - it will not work. (See me - never shopping at Sevenoaks ever! - and telling my A/V mates not too either)

Mark
M R Media Ltd

luminarti.co.uk

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quite amusing Dave, but I would hazzard a guess that the online price was cheaper cos you did all the paperwork online, paid via on line credit card and that it only needed one PC world employee to fetch said card and hand it over hence the cheaper price...... So I assume that PC world have less people in store serving you for a low price item and they can then afford to pay a few more (how should we say this) bright people to flog the PC's/laptops which is where the bigger profits probably lie???? Only a thought.....
Of course the other reason is that they cocked up and might only realise this once no-one actually goes to the tills anymore......

GrahamMG

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Dune - If you'd have read all 25 pages you'd have seen a few examples of where a stores money can go.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
If you'd have read all 25 pages you'd have seen a few examples of where a stores money can go.
If you printed them you can also deduce where the rainforest is going as well.....

GrahamMG

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamMG
Ah that is where you have been going wrong, you should shoot the person who showed you that sales technique

Actually, if you are currently gainfully employed in the industry, shouldn't you be earning a crust and not posting here during office hours?? If I caught any of my lot on the net as much as this I'd be asking some serious questions......

Helicon, take some of the advice offered before its too late for you mate.....
Firstly it's my day off
Secondly things aren't too busy in some cities at the moment
And thirdly, i have already resigned myself to the fact that things are too late - i'm not about to become a lying/do anything to get the sale salesman. I'll slowly disappear with the minority thanks very much.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamMG
If you printed them you can also deduce where the rainforest is going as well.....

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Thanks Stuart

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Wright
I'm willing to bet that the people casting aside highstreet retailers on the whole aren't spending a great deal and probably don't trust their own judgment anyway.
Someone is bound to find that insulting. Sorry but it's my opinion.
It is absolutley right- The sub ?1000 stuff still convincingly outsells the plus ?1000 units however. Realistically the dealer network is still due a shakeup for this simple fact.

Ed Selley

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
You don't seem to grasp what i'm trying to say. If it was ?200 profit on a ?700 'tv', fair enough, but ?200 profit on a ?4000 plasma? Like i said, some people will never be happy.
But how much profit do you make on the leads, brackets and stands that you need to go with the plasma?

Lots of high ticket products get sold at low margins, but the profit can be made on the other bits needed to go with them

With regards to selling old stock at a loss you should put it on e-bay where things always go for more than there worth due to auction fever. Lots of bricks and mortar shops are doing it to shift old stock. Why don't you give it a try, you never know you might like it

cya Rooster-x

rooster-x

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

3890
Quote:
I'm willing to bet that the people casting aside highstreet retailers on the whole aren't spending a great deal and probably don't trust their own judgment anyway.
I think your dead right. I do spend decent money on Av gear but you can probably stick me in that bracket - dont trust their own judgement that is.

Problem is its the old 90 - 10 argument. A poll is a great idea but you are dealing with a specialist community here. I still think the vast majority of the market is price sensitive.

harrisuk

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster-x
But how much profit do you make on the leads, brackets and stands that you need to go with the plasma?

Lots of high ticket products get sold at low margins, but the profit can be made on the other bits needed to go with them

With regards to selling old stock at a loss you should put it on e-bay where things always go for more than there worth due to auction fever. Lots of bricks and mortar shops are doing it to shift old stock. Why don't you give it a try, you never know you might like it

cya Rooster-x
As someone else stated earlier, even accessories aren't free of silly internet prices. And anyone with an internet price for a plasma will have an internet price for a pedestal/brackets etc.

I use ebay for various bits and bobs, so i'm not new to it. Unfortunately i do find that some decent stuff never sells for what it's worth. Like my projector and speakers........

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

i've just seen this on another thread

"Do you know of a system that costs less but does the same?"

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?


Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

well folks..i wouldnt know about london..but here in la (california) i myself as cunsumer cant remeber the last time i bought something from the store!!!
i get online...do my reasearch..talk to a few members from whatever forum i am interetsed in for the device that i wanna get...there is no uneducated salesman trying to bs me with his ramblings and terms they reallydont seem to understand...what i usually use to do in the rare case i do find myself at a store (helping a friends or whatever) is that i listen and then i ask a very specific question regarding some of teh same concepts ideas they were jsut rambling on...nine time out of ten they have no idea what i m talking about or inquiring about and go and get their managers or whatever they do.,..which in turn have a lower understanding of what they are selling..or at least trying to sell..
one one hand i am having alot of discomfrot trying to convince some of my frinds to start buying thing sonline...
i persoannly love it..i get to interview and also aks detailed questiosn about the merchandise to teh same type of people that are buying these equipmenst to do whatever it is they are trying to accomplish...needless to say i can do all this in a short time aking people from all over the world..and also ebing abel to cross refernce what i talk to them about to other fellow members!!

and that my frind dont think any "brick and mortar" retailer can do!!!

i m envisioning a time where there will no longer be any need for store..well mayeb for food..but even that i get online,,,frankly that allows me to free up time for other activities,,,

hope i got my ideas/choices accross as interestingly as i could...

good luck

Prehjan

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Hello all

Another quick toe dip into this one!

There are lots of 'industry folk' who 'Lurk' on these pages!!!

There are a lot of 'industry folk' that read everything some of 'us' say - and act upon it; we should have a league table for 'knuckles' rapped' occurrences; put me down for TWO this month.

Straight talking is not always appreciated in this Industry - unless of course its a glowing report and results in lots of sales.

Adrenochrome - Helicon missed or avoided your question re profitability so a few pointers.

The ?200.00 'profit' on a Plasma sale is not profit - its an inc vat figure and doesn't include his 'cost of sale' costs.

Plasma is a nightmare product for the 'Specialist' - read ex HiFi retailer market!

PlasmaTV and Display has been a 'big ticket' 'specialised' product that's now become, for many, a 'commodity' - the majority of folk who visit these Forums ask pertinent questions on Displays/TV's and then ask where is the cheapest place to purchase one. (fair questions I guess).

A lot of folk on here tell everyone to go demo a unit - and now the 'problems' begin.

If you cant visit the place that everyone tells you supplies them at a 'great' price then what do you do!

A. Just buy it anyway - a lot of folk go with that option.

B. Find someone 'on line' who's a little more expensive but gives a more personalised 'satisfaction guaranteed' service and takes the 'risk' out of a sight unseen purchase - a few folk go with that option.

C. Go to your nearest High Street store (HOPING they have one properly set up on demo) and give them a chance of the sale - a fair few folk go for that option too and now the PRICE becomes an issue.

NOTE : It seems to me to be a fair shout if you let the dealer know what price you expect to pay BEFORE you demo the kit; I'm not so sure about after you demo the kit; read on

For the majority of 'Specialist' stores (read ex HiFi shops) who expect to sell a couple or three Plasma a week they simply cant get near to the pricing the most successful Internet resellers are offering.

Unless your buying in big quantities the figures don't add up. So no matter how hard they try they cant do a price match and 'selling' their service as a 'Value Add' seems to be beyond a lot of these retailers.

Take a Panasonic PWD7 for example - the UK Trade 'one off' PURCHASE price is around ?1.6K (inc VAT). You don't have to look very far on these very Forums to find that same product being retailed (inc Home Delivery) for ?1,395.00; how can that be!!!

'Simple' buy and sell lots of them - pre order 100 units a month and now your 'purchase' price will be nearer ?1.1K - not an option for most in the 'traditional' retail market so even if these guys give the product away at cost (?1.6K) they still look expensive and by the time they stick on a (not unreasonable) 20% margin to their 'one off' buy price they look ridiculously expensive if your not factoring in personal service etc when deciding on where to purchase.

In this Industry its been the tradition to not 'charge' for consultancy, advice, demonstrations etc and instead cover all of your overheads in the 'ticket' price of goods - its a difficult one for buyers and sellers to consider a move to 'charging' for these 'services'.

Helicon, Sevenoaks and the whole industry has to move on - the business model that worked for HiFi Retail for 'mid' and 'high end' kit is, in the main, redundant. There's still a market for many 'traditional' skills and services it's simply that its not as straightforward as it used to be or confined to the four walls of a high street shop!

Advertising - Stuart (oh powerful one) keep in mind your not dealing with 'one entity' even though you, me and the rest of the world see one brand.

Unless the traditional - Head Office (International); Region Office (National), Distributor (National), Retailer (Regional) model is broken your going to find it difficult to convince the National (UK) marketing department to spend money with you when they see folk 'importing' goods and bypassing the 'traditional' supply chain.

Many manufacturers are playing a double edged 'game' - Nationally they like the 'traditional' business model (I guess because there may not be a requirement for a National Office if you don't have a lot of Regional dealers) whereas Head Office wants more turnover and will quite happily do 'big deals' outside the traditional business model.

I'd also have to say that speaking for a minute in 'specific' terms (and playing Devils advocate) there are a couple of things I'd want to understand better about how the AV Forums work before I'd spend my 'National' budget with you!

For example how come a 'Direct to end user' subwoofer manufacturer has its own 'unofficial' Forum (which no matter what anyone tells me is a huge advert) and seems to not have to make a financial contribution to the Forums whereas you want everyone 3890 else to pay for adverts?

See - we all need to evolve

Best regards

Joe

Joe Fernand

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand
For example how come a 'Direct to end user' subwoofer manufacturer has its own 'unofficial' Forum (which no matter what anyone tells me is a huge advert) and seems to not have to make a financial contribution to the Forums whereas you want everyone else to pay for adverts?
2 reasons, actually. There were acusations that the forums were biassed towards SVS. Which is a bit daft cos I have never seen one never mind heard one. There are several enthusiastic SVS owners whose posts were overwhelming the subwoofer forum somewhat.
So reason 1 was because the amount of SVS related discussion warrantied it's own forum. REL and Velodyne forums were also started.
None of these companies support the AV Forums. The decision to create a manufacturer-specific forum is not based on financial influences.
The second reason was to try and remove the impression of bias from the general subwoofer forum and get rid of the SVS clutter.
I would like to start up many more manufacturer specific forums. To qualify, there either needs to be a lot of brand-specific discussion in a general forum or a firm promise of support (in the way of posting) from a representative of the manufacturer (that could be a dealer sanctioned to do so as in the case of the Sim2 forum although they have to be very careful not to break rule 7).

Stuart Wright

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
Many of you are not even the slightest bit interested in whether a dealers survives or not. Once they're gone, they will be missed.
I'm afraid that's how the market works. Capital will eventually flow to where it is used most efficiently. Obviously the market at the moment has dictacted that the 'traditional' dealer is an inefficient use of capital. As such consolidation is unavoidable. Those most efficient who have found a good model or niche market which allows them to make an acceptable return on their capital survive & those who don't will not. Ultimately this should lead to lower prices

F G

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Hi Joe,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand

Adrenochrome - Helicon missed or avoided your question re profitability so a few pointers.

The ?200.00 'profit' on a Plasma sale is not profit - its an inc vat figure and doesn't include his 'cost of sale' costs.
Well it isn't ?200 profit then.

My statements are only based upon the profit being ?200 although even allowing for vat and a phone call to order the tv it is still a decent profit is it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand
NOTE : It seems to me to be a fair shout if you let the dealer know what price you expect to pay BEFORE you demo the kit.


Joe
Agree with this 110%

Adrenochrome

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

where would you buy this http://www.soundandvisiononline.com/...roduct_id=6097

High street or internet?

There is a a factor that i think is important,everybody on here is very comfortable using the internet,as a sample ,people at work who use the internet will not buy over the internet, untill this attitude changes there will always be high street stores,what are your experiences with friends and family ,do they buy online or 'play safe',
This thread does not just apply to av,you can buy everything online,i personally use tesco home delivery,
Does this mean that in the future there will be no more high street shops?

pave

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisuk
The big problem is that we pay so much more for this kit in many cases than consumers in other countries do. So people try to redress the situation by shopping round for the best deal possible, in many cases that means online.

Its a difficult one as in many cases there are real benefits from buying stuff on the high street, advice, being able to demo the product and most importantly warranty / exchange of defective products. The question is is how much more is this worth ? If its a cheap dvd player I dont see the value added in there. If its a ?2000 plasma screen or projector then absolutely.

I have to admit I tend to buy the majority of my stuff online these days. I dont think it will work the manufacturers trying to stop their kit being sold online. They will just up getting a bad reputation and people who want it sooner an cheaper will just go the Grey import route.

I`m not really sure what the solution is to this to be honest.
I agree totally in your excellent post,When i purchased my h/k receiver i could have got it from germany for ?1300 but chose to pay ?1500 just to give me piece of mind, if anything went wrong i only had to take it 3 miles to get it sorted. So shops still have there places, The shop i brought the receiver off also knocked me 10% off my b&w asw675 when i purchased that
seven oaks also knocked me 10% off three monitor audio speakers also.
Its always worth asking for discount and if the price is anywhere near the internet one i would pay the extra and buy from the shop,Not all av-hifi shop owners are to--- there is still a need for these shops and it would be sad to see them go.
Cheers Gonzo.

gonzo

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

You limeys absolutely crack me up! In the last 10 years, I have been a manufacturers' rep, an outside sales rep, a distributor rep, and now, a retailer. I own a small store and theater installation contracting business. Until I started reading this forum I had NEVER heard anyone refer to a brick and mortar retailer as "high street." I understood the term and how it was being used, but I just about wet myself laughing when I clicked the link that opened the page soundandvisiononline.com to find that even the retail price was listed as "high street" instead of "SRV, SRP, MSRP, or Retail." Wow. Amazing how differently we speak since there's only a little pond separating us.

Anyway...in my store we do a couple of things that help to combat the perception of a negative influence of the internet and it's price-savvy consumers.

1) MULTIPLE PRICES FOR THE SAME ITEM. We offer three different pricing levels...Level One is the cheapest, and it is matched to "online" pricing which is often deceiving because the advertised price is often "less shipping." (We do have a computer online in our showroom to allow our walk-in customers to compare features and show us the ridiculously cheap online prices they start bragging about when they walk in our front door.). This dirt-cheap pricing level (which is generally BARELY over dealer sheet pricing) basically buys them a box full of stuff and a handshake as they are ushered out the door. All of the warranty work is handled through the factory (Including D.O.A.) and we answer no technical questions about installation. We tell these "thrifty" consumers that if they expect any assistance beyond that available in the owners manual, they will need to pay our tech by the hour (billed at $65 USD per hour). LEVEL TWO PRICING is still discounted pricing, but it allows us (as the retailer) to afford the consumer some extra perks like tapping into our expertise for installation dilemmas, technical questions, and even allows them to "trade-in" old equipment toward new from us. We also assist these "Level Two" customers with handling their warranty work (we fill out warranty cards, fax them to manufacturers, and allow customers to ship their warranty claims from our location as we have great UPS daily pickup rates. These customers also may choose to have one of our techs visit their home to assist with installation for $30 USD per hour instead of $65 USD. LEVEL THREE PRICING is full retail value (MSRP, SRP, MSRV, SRV, "High Street" etc.) which might make some of you cringe...but our consumers get the best possible service...to ensure they keep coming back to see us year after year. Their products are delivered (on a schedule dictated by the CONSUMER, not by US) by one of our techs and installed on the spot. Warranty claims are 100% paid for and serviced by us (we pick up and re-deliver repaired or replaced goods if necessary).

Plain and simple, we are willing to play the "price-whore" game like the budget "e-tailers" do, but people can expect the exact same amount of service and product support they would get from one of these outfits. You won't see our service truck in front of their house on a holiday or a Sunday afternoon like you might at one of our "Level 3" customers' homes.

We make no apologies for our business model...it's effective, and it allows us to remain popular and profitable for ALL consumers.

Oh, and just to address the common feeling you all seem to have about people in the UK being generally overcharged at the brick & mortar retail stores...Do a little research...you'll find it's that way in most island locations. Hawaii's prices for commodity items is about 40% higher than those of us on the mainland. 1) You are a captive audience and 2) It costs more to get your stuff to you. Yes, this MAY encourage some retailers to do a little "price inflating," but that only lasts as long as the end consumers allow it.

The Speaker Doctor

SpeakerDoctor76

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntslik
I asked Helicon 4 times why he doesn't sell on the internet and he couldn't answer me once, but i know exactly the reason.

Pretty polly your starting to sound very much like Helicon, with the same blinkered views and i therefore can only assume you also work for the same franchised based company
Who said i couldn't answer? I just didn't. I'm not here to blatantly push the company i work for.

You really have got it in for Sevenoaks haven't you.......

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazman
I do feel that to go into a dealer with the sole intention of just to get a demo and not buy from them is very cheeky, stop it .
Well said Kazman

The mega-discount hunters who're out to get the cheapest possible thing they can should stick solely to the net.....anyone interested in a proper demonstration and genuine advice can then freely use b&m retailers, who, no longer feeling under threat and knowing there are no time-wasters coming through the door, can relax and give better service instead of feeling 'on guard' all the time.

Research all you like, if you're going to buy off the net, stick to the net.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
21F0 Originally Posted by Helicon
Who said i couldn't answer? I just didn't. I'm not here to blatantly push the company i work for.

You really have got it in for Sevenoaks haven't you.......
You know why you can't say...it's got nothing to do with "I just didn't", I've got it in for any company who try's bullying tactics to make manufacturers to stop selling to company's that have an internet site

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

I still say there is a market for both retailers and etailers. Stick all the cheap stuff on the net, if the shops want to keep it they'll have to keep up with internet prices, and keep all the better stuff (about ?500 per box as an example) that really should be demonstrated in the stores.

That way people who want to buy as cheap as possible can research on here and in mags as much as they like and just order what they want to go for, and somebody who wants to spend a bit of money and get something a little special can go hear it at a dealer and see if it's what they want.

And if a company wants to stick their sweaty fingers in both pies, they can without upsetting anyone

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
I still say there is a market for both retailers and etailers. Stick all the cheap stuff on the net, if the shops want to keep it they'll have to keep up with internet prices, and keep all the better stuff (about ?500 per box as an example) that really should be demonstrated in the stores.

That way people who want to buy as cheap as possible can research on here and in mags as much as they like and just order what they want to go for, and somebody who wants to spend a bit of money and get something a little special can go hear it at a dealer and see if it's what they want.

And if a company wants to stick their sweaty fingers in both pies, they can without upsetting anyone
I did ask Pretrty polly but didn't get an answer, maybe you could try.......name me 1 internet only trader in our industry

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntslik
You know why you can't say...it's got nothing to do with "I just didn't", I've got it in for any company who try's bullying tactics to make manufacturers to stop selling to company's that have an internet site
I'm not here to talk about the company i work for, i'm here to put across a point of view which very few seem to be doing, which goes to show that most seem to stick together on here to promote genuine dealers as rip-off merchants and liars.

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntslik
I did ask Pretrty polly but didn't get an answer, maybe you could try.......name me 1 internet only trader in our industry
Unbeatable.co.uk? Can't seem to see a proper shop front premises for them.....

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
Unbeatable.co.uk? Can't seem to see a proper shop front premises for them.....
Owned by capital sound and vision...keep trying you won't find one

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Digitaldirectuk.com?

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
Digitaldirectuk.com?
another one i have queried about before yet been told backed by a high street retailer....don't have the name to hand

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

No mention on the site of being owned by anyone.....until proven otherwise......

Helicon

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helicon
No mention on the site of being owned by anyone.....until proven otherwise......
i'll check it out, another issue which i don't think has been brought up, which was something i discussed with one of the MD's of a manufacturer was, i don't believe it will be too long until someone takes one of these manufacturers to court for discrimination against the disabled, night shift workers or anyone else that can't physically get to a store.

It maybe a too complex legal thing to discuss but certainly something worth considering

ntslik

The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

Being a newbie to the forums....I've tried hard to read through this extensive and exhaustive thread.....(maybe some of the things have been covered before....so I beg your forgiveness if I'm going over old ground), but I can only convey my own experiences regarding high street v on-line retailers.

I suspect many forum members live in large towns or cities and therefore have many high street retailers to choose from.

As I live in rural Scotland......I am extremely limited in my options if I wish to purchase from the high street.

Having said that...I live in the town centre and have one independant dealer who refuses to give my a home demo....despite me living only 200 yds away from their shop. They have a demo room...but it is completely different to my surroundings......so any equipment would look and sound completely different in my environment compared to theirs. I'm just as well buying from an online dealer and I'd save a wad of cash into the bargain.

I also have a forum sponsor, (who I won't name for now), ....who has a shop 80ft away from my front door.....who again refuses to give me a home demo.....probably because it is too much trouble for them. So....if someone can convince me to reach into my wallet for this second-rate service....I'd like to hear it.

I'm not a time-waster who only visits on a Saturday afternoon but a genuine buyer with money to spend.....in fact I'd rather spend it with a local dealer, as I'm supporting local jobs.....even if it means paying more than an internet dealer.....but I won't spend extra money on a poor service.....in my case the high street can't or won't go the extra mile for my business....so the internet dealer gets my cash.

Quoting the admin in the first post.....

A potential customer walks into a high street AV retailer and takes a demo of some equipment they are interest in purchasing. The customer takes their time and maybe a cup of coffee and makes the decision to buy. Then they whip out a piece of paper with details of the same equipment for sale cheaper at www. whatever .com and tries to get the dealer to match the price. Or worse they just walk out of the shop and buy online.

Again quoting Stuart....

My message to people buying AV kit is not to forget the added value you are getting from a high street retailer which justifies their prices

There's no added value in my neck of the woods.

Also.....is just an AV thing....or is there an equal loathing for people who test drive a car at a franchised dealer, taking up their time........then when the franchised dealer can't match the car supermarket....the buyer buys the same car, cheaper from a car supermarket?? Or someone who goes into an opticians......tries on a pair of Oakleys, likes them but the shop won't match the online store....who is selling the same sunglasses at 40% cheaper. Or the person who walks into Woolies/HMV or wherever....picks up a DVD but finds they can buy the same DVD for half the price from Play/CD-Wow.

I guess this forum is populated with lottery winners who can afford to fritter away their money at a high street dealer........what I want to know is......what's so wrong about saving money???




Andy Leitch

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