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 Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers
Question JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub ( AVS Forum Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers )
Updated: 2008-05-18 13:10:04 (4045)
JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Alright so after many long months of waiting we received our demo unit JL Audio Fathom single 13". This is the sub to beat. It will no doubt make Velodyne take their DD series back to the drawing board.

This sub is not only better for home theater-type bass than a DD15, it is fast and responsive like a REL. Our DD12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom. JL Audio will have lots of success with home audio products if this is a sign of things to come.

Anyone in the Southern California area, can pm me if interested in demo'ing at our shop or in your home. I will try to get some pics up in the next few days.

Answers: JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub ( AVS Forum Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers )
JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg
I would never buy a Benz because I could buy 3 Civics for the price of it and I would have to buy a second car to drive in the winter anyway...

The second one isn't because the first one doesn't have enough output, it makes smoother bass in the listening room and makes me feel like a REAL man.
I think a more realistic analogy would be 3 MB's for the price of one bentley.

tundrSQ

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Anyone with a dealer recommendation near San Jose, CA?

My attempts to contact and speak directly with someone at ANY of the three listed on the JL Audio website have so far been fruitless. One is in San Jose, one is in San Francisco, the last in Oakland. I have no desire to make the drive (particularly the last two) if I can't even connect by phone.

Straw_man

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straw_man
Anyone with a dealer recommendation near San Jose, CA?

My attempts to contact and speak directly with someone at ANY of the three listed on the JL Audio website have so far been fruitless. One is in San Jose, one is in San Francisco, the last in Oakland. I have no desire to make the drive (particularly the last two) if I can't even connect by phone.
I highly recommend GE Technology in Oakland. I used him for both my F113 and Earthquake Cinenova amp purchases. Please tell Greg (the owner) that Vishal referred you to him.

vishal

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

hometheater mag has a review of the jl this issue (april ).

oztech

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124
The Misunderstood .1 LFE channel is the article I had in mind.

Excerpt ..
"Dolby Digital's LFE channel carries additional bass information from 120 Hz on down. This is not a roll-off but a digital brick wall (i.e., no 121 Hz info), so the content is usually rolled off by the sound engineer starting around 80 Hz for a smoother blend. "
My question is if the sound engineer has already carefully thought about the roll-off starting at 80Hz for a smoother blend. Why not bypass the sub Xover rather than forcing our own? By the same argument, why was not the brickwall set at 80Hz rather than 120Hz?

Food for thought.

jmcomp124

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ
I think a more realistic analogy would be 3 MB's for the price of one bentley.
Sure... pricing is all relative. The Fathom is certainly on the expensive end of the spectrum, but there are many subs priced about the same and a lot higher than an f113 as well.

Paradigm Reference Signature Servo is $3,200
Genelec HTS4B is $3,750
Aerial Acoustics SW12 is $4600
Velodyne DD18 is $5000
REL Studio III is $9,000
JM Lab Sub Utopia Be is $8,500
Wilson Watch Dog is $11,000
Krell Master Reference is $28,000

Some might consider the f113 a really good value in this company. It's all relative.

In the future, you can expect to see some more affordable subwoofers in the JL Audio lineup.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

msmith_JL

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

What are the requirements for the f113 to turn on when set to auto?

Mine is not turning on when set to auto. If I flip it to on then leave it on auto it appears to stay on but the next day it does it again. I thought at first it needed to have a 5.1 signal for some reason but I just tried batman begins from hbo hd and it was 5.1 and after a few minutes it still did not turn on.

Shepracing

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL
Sure... pricing is all relative. The Fathom is certainly on the expensive end of the spectrum, but there are many subs priced about the same and a lot higher than an f113 as well.

Paradigm Reference Signature Servo is $3,200
Genelec HTS4B is $3,750
Aerial Acoustics SW12 is $4600
Velodyne DD18 is $5000
REL Studio III is $9,000
JM Lab Sub Utopia Be is $8,500
Wilson Watch Dog is $11,000
Krell Master Reference is $28,000

Some might consider the f113 a really good value in this company. It's all relative.

In the future, you can expect to see some more affordable subwoofers in the JL Audio lineup.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
Manville...you sure have come a LONG way from the $50 8w2...congrats for sure!!!!

tundrSQ

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Manville, just checked out you guy's latest Sub technology on your website, the Thin line Subwoofer. Very neat idea. You could make some kickass slimline Home speakers with this driver. I see the exursion is somewhat limited and didn't see the frequency range in the recommended box size. Could you elaborate? http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=213

Have you thought about developing a cheaper home sub with the guts of your 500/1 Slash amp coupled to a 12 or 13W6v2 in a nice box with maybe different colors of wood laminate?

JPBOSS

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech
hometheater mag has a review of the jl this issue (april ).

Great I have a subscription with them,I guess I'll be reading that issue mid May!

Is it going to be the F113?

Djoel

Djoel

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepracing
What are the requirements for the f113 to turn on when set to auto?

Mine is not turning on when set to auto. If I flip it to on then leave it on auto it appears to stay on but the next day it does it again. I thought at first it needed to have a 5.1 signal for some reason but I just tried batman begins from hbo hd and it was 5.1 and after a few minutes it still did not turn on.

Mine is alway on,it doesn't turn off I have turn it off manually

Djoel

Djoel

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Ok folks!
It finally arrived. And here are the pics. Quickly hooked it up, and fired up some music with really deep bass. I don't know how many of you have heard "Le temps passe" and this little heavy beautiful thing lives up to it's reputation. Too early to do any comparison between the DTS-20 and the f113 but I am very very very impressed with how it sounds. Amazing little unit. My wife saw it and the first thing she said was "Wow" and there was this priceless smile. Bad news is after hearing some house shaking, the question came "so do you really need two" .
To avoid any such questions, I am going to play low key. Will try to post a comparison between the DTS-20 and this but no promises. I no longer have the time and energy to do detailed comparisons and post my opinons here as they always result in a lot of conflict and drains me. Long story short, this unit is a keeper and so will the second f113. I am a happy man . I think my long drawn search had ended and I won't think about subwoofers for another few years. Did I really say that. Ok, I will think about subwoofers, but I won't buy another one in the near future. More to come later....

jmcomp124

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brady84
I contacted my local dealer....they are running a hot special right now

$0 off MSRP!!!

If I were to purchase a f113 from my authorized dealer it would be the first time in my entire life I've paid FULLL MSRP. I guess when you got the hottest product out there you can do what you want.

I feel as though I need to apologize for this previous post...I was trying to be sarcastic and funny...well I was contacted by the 2nd of 3 dealers in my area and they are asking for $3600!!!! but "it's a good deal because it includes shipping and tax" Tax would take MSRP of 3200+259=$3459! So they are actually charging over MSRP for the F113. I am afraid to contact the 3 authorized dealer...they may want 4k I know a few are available over the internet for cheaper but I would like the local professional touch when I am paying this much for a product. Having custom installers as dealers is great I'm sure for their knowledge base and expertise, I can even see them giving good prices to those who purchase whole systems or rooms, but for the small time consumer like myself, the experience has been less than exciting/satisfactory. I wanted one badly but I've become disheartened with the search, I can drive to the local HT shop, without an appointment, and receive great personal service on auditioning a DD-15, choose to buy it, and take it home for less than MSRP or above. Sorry for the whining...I think I'm done now

Brady84

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

While the JL113 is an excellent sounding sub, the prices are much too high for what they are. The initial frenzy will die down soon enough especially when the other new subwoofers are introduced later this year. I like this sub but I like $3600 in my jeans more. Jl Audio would be wise to rethink their long term distribution strategy vis a vis direct and online sales if they want to build a large repeatable customer base while they have an winner in their introductory home product line. Other great new subs besides this one are on the horizon.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124
Sorry dude. $2550 is the wrong number . I got it for less.
Then you got a smokin' deal. I paid $2475 for the satin and thought I got a good deal.

jacksonian

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
While the JL113 is an excellent sounding sub, the prices are much too high for what they are. The initial frenzy will die down soon enough especially when the other new subwoofers are introduced later this year. I like this sub but I like $3600 in my jeans more. Jl Audio would be wise to rethink their long term distribution strategy vis a vis direct and online sales if they want to build a large repeatable customer base while they have an winner in their introductory home product line. Other great new subs besides this one are on the horizon.
The only problem with your argument is that one who is going to drop $3600 on a subwoofer is not really worried about the cost of the thing. The cost becomes secondary to the desire to have this in his house. I can honestly see the attraction....its a damn sexy box, and if money was not an issue for me I may decide that a couple of them would make me happy too. In the mean time my $159 NHT1259 in a home made box mounted under my floor and powered by a $200 amp has made me happy for 7 years I can afford much more than this, but never felt the need. Althought lately a 15" TC Sound 2000 has caught my eye for a grand total of $299 shipped

tundrSQ

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

This thread stopped being usefull about 1000 replies ago...

New proud owner of an F113, it is now 4 days old and still loving it.

Matthew

speedyellow

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

DELETED

TheEAR

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK!
My room is 21’X19’X9’ and I prefer this location.

I use the master/salve config, have a Velo SMS-1 and lots of acoustic treatment panels. I have tried outboard of the mains and moving one to the back of the room and there isn’t much difference so I stuck with this symmetrical location. I ran ARO first then used the SMS-1 to flatten the room response. The response is highly variable based upon seat/mic location. I'll be interested in your results with Audyssey.
very impressive Rob! looks very good, with a great natural FR. Well done my friend.

speaking of Audyssey, don't which version is the one being discussed here, but keep in mind that the Audyssey MultiEQ XT (not the pro version) has some serious issues with the lower band of the LFE channel. I tried both the 3806 and 4308 Denon versions, and both had really adverse effects on the lower end of the spectrum (<30hz). Some more info here:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...96#post9792196

hope that helps

ps- if you got a free ticket to your place, count me in for the GTG

ssabripo

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by im the man
Don't mean to get off topic but I have a couple of questions for msmith_JL. When are the new full range JL speakers suppose to be out and how much will they cost?
I wish I could give you an answer but we have not yet announced dates or pricing for this project. It is still in the development phase.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

msmith_JL

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK!
I use the master/salve config, have a Velo SMS-1 and lots of acoustic treatment panels. I have tried outboard of the mains and moving one to the back of the room and there isn’t much difference so I stuck with this symmetrical location. I ran ARO first then used the SMS-1 to flatten the room response. The response is highly variable based upon seat/mic location. I'll be interested in your results with Audyssey.
Overall it looks good Rob but I think you can improve things. It will mean experimenting some more with placement though the JLs look sweet aligned symetrically up front. What's bothering me is that huge boost at 63hz and the smaller boost at 35hz. I've found its better to move subs around so that you are ideally just using cuts. Even those JLs with their huge amps would benefit from not boosting. Also did you play with the elf trim rather than make those huge cuts in the 20s, again just trying to use minimal outboard equalization where possible to keep ringing to a minimum.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
very impressive Rob! looks very good, with a great natural FR. Well done my friend.

speaking of Audyssey, don't which version is the one being discussed here, but keep in mind that the Audyssey MultiEQ XT (not the pro version) has some serious issues with the lower band of the LFE channel. I tried both the 3806 and 4308 Denon versions, and both had really adverse effects on the lower end of the spectrum (<30hz). Some more info here:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...96#post9792196

hope that helps

ps- if you got a free ticket to your place, count me in for the GTG

Hi Sherv,

The FR only looks this good in one mic location (where I sit). I think John's comments above are spot on. The main boost is at the x-over for my mains and likely a cancellation issue. I have played with the phase adjustments but to no avail. I will have a week off during the holidays and will be (per John's reccomendation) trying out different placement options. I will also take pics of the SMS-1 sweeps before and after ARO and with and without EQ via the SMS-1 to document the process. This stuff is so hardware and room dependant not sure there is much value in sharing the info here but if there is interest I'll start a thread.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK!
Hi Sherv,

The FR only looks this good in one mic location (where I sit). I think John's comments above are spot on. The main boost is at the x-over for my mains and likely a cancellation issue. I have played with the phase adjustments but to no avail. I will have a week off during the holidays and will be (per John's reccomendation) trying out different placement options. I will also take pics of the SMS-1 sweeps before and after ARO and with and without EQ via the SMS-1 to document the process. This stuff is so hardware and room dependant not sure there is much value in sharing the info here but if there is interest I'll start a thread.
yes, I wholeheartedly agree with john. The end FR looks very good...I like it. However, there is way too much boost at the 63hz mark, which undoubtedly will bring some coloration to the acoustic signature, possibly ringing. Moving the subs and playing with placement is a must for sure, but still, not a bad looking FR at the end regardless.

will be following very closely....very interesting stuff, and again, congrats...looks like a killer system!

ssabripo

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
yes, I wholeheartedly agree with john. The end FR looks very good...I like it. However, there is way too much boost at the 63hz mark, which undoubtedly will bring some coloration to the acoustic signature, possibly ringing. Moving the subs and playing with placement is a must for sure, but still, not a bad looking FR at the end regardless.

will be following very closely....very interesting stuff, and again, congrats...looks like a killer system!

Thanks Sherv, it is a labor of love.

OT warning! BTW, have you tried the Pulse DVD on your subs? The computer room scene (not sure which ch) really brought my F113's and a pair of PB13's to their knees. Much groaning, rattleing and complaining from the subs. Similar to John's Sound Hound Organ CD. I'd be interested in how your subs handle that content.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

RMK,
WHAT???? the PAIR of F113s was beaten into submission by Pulse?
Damn. After hearing it on the Quad 18inch IB Avalanches it's looking like a couple more F113s are in the cards for me. Wish the Conquest and Castle weren't so big and fugly, but they are what they are!

The Bogg

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg
Wish the Conquest and Castle weren't so big and fugly, but they are what they are!
Yes they are and don't forget the eD A7-900.

Don't get me wrong, four F113's would be really cool but I'm not sure thats the answer to this problem. We tried it with all four going and things didn't improve. Better setup might have helped but it seemed to me that both subs just could not play that really LF content at loud levels.

IB or really big (and fugly) may be the only way.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

RMK,
if you get a chance, would you mind trying it without the sms in the loop - just to satisfy my curiosity (and a few others...). I haven't listened to my pair of f113s in a loooong time while waiting for the room to be done (a month or so away from completion) but I remember them shaking the bejesus out of me without distorting so I'm surprised at what I'm reading. The only other time I've heard of Pulse causing distortion on fathoms or the svs unit is when it was run through an sms (at John's sub get together)

I know John will chime in about this but I just want to see if the distortion is possibly related to INPUT clipping from the sms as opposed to distortion from the woofers themselves. Perhaps Manville would care to comment, but from what I understood the f113 has a limiter so it shouldn't sound too distorted even when grossly overdriven. Pulse is fairly bass heavy but so is WOTW, FOTP etc......

The Bogg

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

If you look at the Pulse waterfall charts, Asher, which I don't have handy you would see just how intense Pulse is from 17hz to around 70hz so its no surprise its bringing the pair of FL113s or pair of Ultra13s to its knees at moderate to louder volumes .

One possible issue may be that huge boost at 63hz which may be exaggerating the signal too much. In our tests we never applied boosts only cuts, so at a minimum it would be worth running again without the boosts. Also Rob, have you upgraded the SMS firmware to 2.13? If you keep the sub input gain in the -5 zone it won't make much difference, maybe a slightly steeper rolloff below 20hz, however if you run the sub signal over unity into the SMS I would suggest upgrading the SMS firmware to the latest v. 2.13.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg
RMK,
if you get a chance, would you mind trying it without the sms in the loop - just to satisfy my curiosity (and a few others...). I haven't listened to my pair of f113s in a loooong time while waiting for the room to be done (a month or so away from completion) but I remember them shaking the bejesus out of me without distorting so I'm surprised at what I'm reading. The only other time I've heard of Pulse causing distortion on fathoms or the svs unit is when it was run through an sms (at John's sub get together)

I know John will chime in about this but I just want to see if the distortion is possibly related to INPUT clipping from the sms as opposed to distortion from the woofers themselves. Perhaps Manville would care to comment, but from what I understood the f113 has a limiter so it shouldn't sound too distorted even when grossly overdriven. Pulse is fairly bass heavy but so is WOTW, FOTP etc......
Good point re the SMS-1. I will give that a try. The unusual thing is WOTW plays fine at the same volume. I tell you that Pulse DVD is possessed.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
If you look at the Pulse waterfall charts, Asher, which I don't have handy you would see just how intense Pulse is from 17hz to around 70hz so its no surprise its bringing the pair of FL113s or pair of Ultra13s to its knees at moderate to louder volumes .

One possible issue may be that huge boost at 63hz which may be exaggerating the signal too much. In our tests we never applied boosts only cuts, so at a minimum it would be worth running again without the boosts. Also Rob, have you upgraded the SMS firmware to 2.13? If you keep the sub input gain in the -5 zone it won't make much difference, maybe a slightly steeper rolloff below 20hz, however if you run the sub signal over unity into the SMS I would suggest upgrading the SMS firmware to the latest v. 2.13.
I have down loaded the 2.13 upgrade to my PC and will load it this weekend. At the GTG session I ran a separate SMS preset with just the PB13's and used the Automatic EQ option. All the demos were used with this setup for both sub pairs. I don't recall the specific EQ settings but I'm sure there were boosts applied. The guys were not very enthusiastic about listening to frequency sweeps with all that cool demo material waiting

Good suggestions John, I will try the Pulse demo without the 60Hz boost and see if the F113 still emits a death rattle.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK!
Thanks Sherv, it is a labor of love.

OT warning! BTW, have you tried the Pulse DVD on your subs? The computer room scene (not sure which ch) really brought my F113's and a pair of PB13's to their knees. Much groaning, rattleing and complaining from the subs. Similar to John's Sound Hound Organ CD. I'd be interested in how your subs handle that content.
I could have seen that with a pair of F113's, but surprised to hear that all 4 engaged had issues! Actually, not very surprising now that I think about it. The Pulse has tremendous amounts of energy from 16.4hz up to upper 60's (see waterfall charts), and even at moderate levels it demands a lot of headroom and clean power plant.

case in point, in my setup, both Crown K2 amps start clipping at -11dB reference! Now, the issue is not the subs as they are still displacing very cleanly at those levels, but rather that the energy demand on that passage is so strong, that I am seeing some major AC sag on my line, possibly dropping to 100VAC. Each Crown K2 is running bridged at 2500W per sub, but with the sag, I'm sure it is dropping considerably, possibly to 1600-1800W!!! Easy to predict by interpolating chuck's measurements:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post11650937
In stereo mode, each channel at 4 ohms:
Chuck's test @ 20hz, 0.075% THD @ 120VAC = 723w
Chuck's test @ 20hz, 1% THD @ 96VAC = 424w
You can see what the impact on 2500W will be due to line sag!

These two amps are running on their own separate 20A circuit breaker, and there is still some sag! I don't know how you are setup in your room, but with 4 subs rated at 2 x 2500W and 2x750W, if you are running them from the same AC line, you will definitely get some VAC sag which will cause your subs' power plants to drop below rated output, which will cause them to behave as described....at least in this passage.


Another point would to reiterate is the aforementioned boosting at 63hz (and 32hz). Again, there will be an increase demand of power right in the middle of this passage at those frequencies, and having this much boost in EQ will be a major contributor.

Again, I'll use my example: The first "final" equalization had some substantial amount of boosting around 40hz and 65hz:

It was pretty decent, but at very high energy levels, you could tell there was coloration at those frequencies at high reference.

I moved the subs ever so slightly, and used less boost all around, except for that nasty null still present at 35-40hz. Still, the single filter at 40hz with 4db gain helped out, and no major increase was used:

The result was a huge decrease in coloration and no residue of ringing.


Both of these issues (VAC line sag, and EQ boosting) probably contributed to your situation, as they did for mine. Hopefully this information is useful.

ssabripo

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

So does Pulse have significantly more "torture potential" to subs than WOTW? That's not the impression I got from Craig's thread. Speaking of which, he ran a 12.5hz feed into the fathom at high volume without any strange sounds (as far as I could tell from the post).

A pair of f113s plus a pair of pb13s has pretty much the same displacement as 4 18 inch woofers so there should be some serious headroom available.

The power amp issues related to voltage sag are a good thought.

The Bogg

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Yes I believe that to be the case because of the sheer intensity of the signal, no other scene that I know packs that much wallop . However WOTW does provide powerful amplitude down to the single digits which Pulse does not, so it is also a good torture test. As is FOTP for that heavy stuff in the 25-45hz zone.

Good comments Sherv! That helps explain what may have blown Jesse's amp when we were testing his IB several weeks ago. We played FOTP right after Pulse. Maybe Rob's right and Pulse does take possession of our gear if played too loudly. Or we were possessed to be even sitting there getting hit with those pulsing waveforms at 125-130db

I believe the 4 Avalanche 18"ers have more displacement that the drivers in 4 JL113s but I don't have the data at my fingertips. Sherv do you know? Jesse would know but he doesn't hang around these forums as much these days.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg
So does Pulse have significantly more "torture potential" to subs than WOTW? That's not the impression I got from Craig's thread. Speaking of which, he ran a 12.5hz feed into the fathom at high volume without any strange sounds (as far as I could tell from the post).

A pair of f113s plus a pair of pb13s has pretty much the same displacement as 4 18 inch woofers so there should be some serious headroom available.

The power amp issues related to voltage sag are a good thought.
There is something about "Pulse" that seems to give many subs a hard time. It may not be as good of a test as WOTW because it doesn't cover as wide a spectrum of frequencies. It seems to primarily oscillate between two very heavy tones. Played at high volume, it does make my ported subs work very hard. Interestingly enough, my SB12's don't sweat it at all. They just seem to ignore the lower, deeper tone while the ported subs doggedly try to reproduce it.

A 12.5hz tone through a Fathom shouldn't cause much of a problem since it would be mostly low-filtered out by the sub.

mojomike

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Craig's post indicates that the fathom's woofer was moving very vigorously with the 12.5hz tone, even though there was no output per se.

The other thing is, RMK has a lot of "cut" on the sms which means that the output to the subs is really cut down in the low low bass. Looks like 12db of cut at the lowest 2 bands. And yet it still induced distortion? Something isn't right imho, that's why I just want to see if taking the sms out of the loop changes anything.

Mike, you noticed your ported subs work harder with Pulse, but the fathoms are sealed!

The Bogg

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

A main reason why this track causes so many problems with subs has to do with how quickly the amp/drivers can respond to that fast changing high amplitude signal. That's my hypothesis why we heard such terrible chuffing and groaning from the Ultra13 at levels where the other subs were becoming more linear. Those incredibly powerful peaks coming in such short time stress the hell out of any amp whose damping factor or rise time is not up to stuff. That creates too many non-linearities in the driver which get compounded and the whole sub system goes haywire. That's one reason ported subs with mediocre plate amps have a really tough time at lower levels compared to the subs with bigger Class D amps.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Thanks for the input guys. The pairs were each running on new dedicated 20 amp circuits I added with the new room. Interesting that WOTW has lower content than Pulse. The F113's have no problem with WOTW Ch5 but I have had my Triplite Power conditioner shut down during Ch5 if I am really pushing it. The only thing running on that circuit (16 amp) is my Plasma, the SSP and Sunfire 400-5 Power Amp.

I'm thinking the culprit may in fact be the SMS-1. I will bypass it and see what happens.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
A main reason why this track causes so many problems with subs has to do with how quickly the amp/drivers can respond to that fast changing high amplitude signal. That's my hypothesis why we heard such terrible chuffing and groaning from the Ultra13 at levels where the other subs were becoming more linear. Those incredibly powerful peaks coming in such short time stress the hell out of any amp whose damping factor or rise time is not up to stuff. That creates too many non-linearities in the driver which get compounded and the whole sub system goes haywire. That's one reason ported subs with mediocre plate amps have a really tough time at lower levels compared to the subs with bigger Class D amps.
I'd say that a much more likely cause for stress is feeding a huge signal to a ported sub below it's tuning frequency. If the sub is tuned to 20hz and you feed an enormous signal in the range of 16-18hz (Pulse), the woofer is getting no longer getting support from the air in the box and it is out of control. Even with a low filter applied, it's not a brick wall and there is still plenty of signal getting through.

mojomike

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Sure that is an issue, but the observations being reported here again are consistent with a clipping amp. An amp running out of gas would produce the kind of effects that keep getting reported. Its a problem I've always had with compromised ported subs: lack of dynamic headroom for cleanly reproducing peaks and transients. That's why I like using Pulse more than any other torture track because it pushes the sub amps to the limit so we see how well the whole system responds under stress. I'm sure peoples sub choices would change considerably if they had a better idea how much dynamic headroom they had from those amps hidden inside the enclosure. That is far more important criteria than say whether a sub driver/port can go a few hertz lower with slightly higher output.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse?

getech

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

John,

IIRC the 4 18inchers have displacement of about 24L which is about the same as 4 Fathom F113s. If you have 2 F113s and 2 PB13s you should have roughly the same output as 4 18 inchers. Therefore, if you are getting ugly noises etc... something must be wrong in the setup. I understand it's a difficult piece (Pulse), but it's not like the subs are pansy-weights or anything!

The Bogg

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by getech
I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse?
Really, at what levels? All subs go into distress with Pulse depending on the input signal, but they do behave differently and the Ultra gives off quite a bit of audible distortion and chuffing at high levels just before clipping then it gets worse. Two subs give you more headroom but if you play Pulse loud enough and listen carefully you will hear the onset of the distress. I like using this track to find out at what level the audible artifacts set in because every sub behaves differently. Some subs handle it way better than others depending on design and protective filters/circuits. And yes lots of amp headroom is key to reproducing this track cleanly. That's where the huge headroom of 2500W Class D amps in the FL113 have a great advantage over the usual smaller Class AB plate amps in many subs, though even a pair of FL113 subs can be brought to heel with this track at high volume. The JL113s distort far less than the Ultra13 overall though the Ultra13 in 20hz mode closes that gap.

The only sub I have heard reproduce Pulse cleanly at high output has been Jesse's IB with its 4 18"s . You are just not going to get there with only 2 commercial subs if that is your objective thought more subs are always better.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by getech
I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse?
If I understand correctly, RMK has both two F113's and two Ultras running at the same time, and he is getting the same issues. Jakeman and the rest of their GTG confirmed this as well. The levels at which you are playing vs where they are pushing these subs must be different. What is your reference level, and what size room are you running them on?

ssabripo

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

After hearing about all of these noises, I wanted to see for myself what sort of output I could get out of one PB13 with "Pulse" before the sound became unpleasant. These are the #'s I managed in all four operating modes, measured 1m from the sub, uncorrected Radio Shack SPL measurements, with only the PB13 running. The room is 6200 cu. ft. wide open to the whole house.

20hz tuning...121db
15hz tuning...120db
10hz tuning...118db
sealed..........117db

There was never a sound resembling a "fart". The sound never became unplesent due to severe distortion. I did note some port chuffing in all ported modes, but if the rest of the speakers were running, it wouldn't have been noticeable. I'm not sure if I was maxed out, but I really doubt there was much left in the tank. I now really doubt that it is possible to bottom out a PB13. Nothing broke, nothing shut down. It may be bullet-proof.

mojomike

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I believe the highest CEA2010 output data measured by Illka for both the Ultra13 in 20hz mode and FL113 was avg. 115.8db between 40-63 hz at 2 metres before distortion limited the output for both subs.

Without knowing signal input its hard to draw comparisons but it does sound like you are close to the limits with your measurements at 1 metre. You have to be careful when driving an amp into sustained clipping. Even though it won't fry the voicecoils like a tweeter, its not healthy for the sub. Instantaneous clipping at peaks won't harm anything but it does make for a crappy distorted sound which is where the additional amp headroom comes in handy.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

John, I can't make any direct comparisons with standardized measuring because these were indoor measurements, not outdoor ground-plane measurements. Also, these are not precise sine sweeps, but a movie sound track. I do believe I was very close to my limits.

mojomike

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by getech
I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse?
why are you posting this in a JL thread ?

otk

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

He's posting it here because we're "talking" about Pulse and how it seems to hurt F113s and PB13s.

The distortion sounds I heard were not subtle. It didn't take a critical ear to note that it sounded like crap at a level that didn't seem crazy high. Hurry up RMK and try it again without the SMS just to satisfy our collective curiosity!

The Bogg

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Hello,


Quote:
I struggled with that same decision (DD-18 vs F113).
That is quite a collection of subwoofers, do you have any pictures you can post? I would like to see how you have those placed in your room.

I don't have any pictures, but I need to because you would not believe how lucky I got placing the DTS20 under- behind the screen in a cove. It looks custom! The Klipsch are placed on both side of the center channel and the DD18 mid point on one wall and the f113 mid point on the opposite wall. I only have 2 on at a time.

rmlowz

rmlowz

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F. Palacio
Can somebody explain to me the reasoning for pairing two dissimilar subs?

I read a white paper, a while back, that went into all the reason NOT to mix subs. I don't recall them all but the one that "stuck" was that because of the differences in frequency response the result was reinforcement on those frequencies both subs reproduced (or reproduced louder) and not on the ones that were more prevalent in one or the other sub.

Apparently a new discovery has been made and I am not aware of it.
Good question. I am about to buy a F113 to replace my ACI Maestro but now I am wondering if I should ADD the F113 to the mix.

Hopefully someone can elaborate.

coolstrategist

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz
Hello,

I just got my f113 connected and tuned in with my SMS1. I have to agree with Jakeman my DD18 is marginally better in my room. Don't get me wrong I think for the money without spending more on the DD18 the f113 is the way to go. I have my DD18 in the marketplace, I am going to pull it and think this one out before I sell. It is amazing how they get a sub to produce great bass with such a small enclosure. I also have a DTS 20 and the Klipsch Ultra subs the Klipsch subs are a very close second. The DTS 20 it is understandably in a whole different league. My opinion on what I heard in my theater.

rmlowz
I struggled with that same decision (DD-18 vs F113).
That is quite a collection of subwoofers, do you have any pictures you can post? I would like to see how you have those placed in your room.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Hello,

It is just a hobby for me not a new discovery . My room is 15.5 wide x 18 deep x 8 foot high ceilings. I really only need one sub, but its this forum and my interest in always trying to find something better that makes me get different systems. I change out often. When I buy buying 2 of the same does not make sense to me. I will say though 2 subs of any manufacture sounds much better in my room it is not even marginal it makes a big difference. My two cents.

rmlowz

rmlowz

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Hello,


I will try the ARO next without the SMS1. I am so used to the SMS1, I just took it out of the box and connected it to the SMS1 and started calibrating.

rmlowz

rmlowz

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

rmlows. Life's hard when you have both a DD-18 and a JL113 in your room. Dual subs always perform better than any one sub and you have one of the killer duals. I am actually thinking through whether to move the ep600 to my TV room and buy either a JL113 or another DD-18. These subs are so close sonically they would probably blend very well.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Can somebody explain to me the reasoning for pairing two dissimilar subs?

I read a white paper, a while back, that went into all the reason NOT to mix subs. I don't recall them all but the one that "stuck" was that because of the differences in frequency response the result was reinforcement on those frequencies both subs reproduced (or reproduced louder) and not on the ones that were more prevalent in one or the other sub.

Apparently a new discovery has been made and I am not aware of it.

John F. Palacio

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz
Hello,

I just got my f113 connected and tuned in with my SMS1. I have to agree with Jakeman my DD18 is marginally better in my room. Don't get me wrong I think for the money without spending more on the DD18 the f113 is the way to go. I have my DD18 in the marketplace, I am going to pull it and think this one out before I sell. It is amazing how they get a sub to produce great bass with such a small enclosure. I also have a DTS 20 and the Klipsch Ultra subs the Klipsch subs are a very close second. the DTS 20 it is understandably in a whole different league. My opinion on what I heard in my theater.

rmlowz
Did you try the ARO, instead of the SMS-1? I recently posted a thread about my experience with an F112 and ARO with the SMS-1. I was surprised how well the ARO worked, and it was easier than the SMS-1's manual EQ.

Craig

craig john

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

expect, on average, 10-15% off. There are many people claiming they get more money off, or you should expect to get more money off the retail, but put yourself in the dealers shoes. Don't expect them to fall all over themselves just to save you money, its how they keep the lights on. That being said, it never hurts to shop around!

kgb540

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Hello,

I just got my f113 connected and tuned in with my SMS1. I have to agree with Jakeman my DD18 is marginally better in my room. Don't get me wrong I think for the money without spending more on the DD18 the f113 is the way to go. I have my DD18 in the marketplace, I am going to pull it and think this one out before I sell. It is amazing how they get a sub to produce great bass with such a small enclosure. I also have a DTS 20 and the Klipsch Ultra subs the Klipsch subs are a very close second. The DTS 20 it is understandably in a whole different league. My opinion on what I heard in my theater.

rmlowz

rmlowz

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by hma
Looking for advice for replacing my B&W ASW 2500 sub. I have an all Thiel system (except sub) in an 18 x 22 theater. I listened to the JL Audio f112 (no f113 available) and will be listening to the Thiel SS2 and REL B2 at a different dealer (with different speakers). Anyone have thoughts regarding f113 vs. REL vs. Thiel for my situation? Unfortunately, I won't be able to do a direct comparison since no one dealer has both the Thiel and JL subs.
Nothing can touch the F113 in my opinion.

jeff76

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Looking for advice for replacing my B&W ASW 2500 sub. I have an all Thiel system (except sub) in an 18 x 22 theater. I listened to the JL Audio f112 (no f113 available) and will be listening to the Thiel SS2 and REL B2 at a different dealer (with different speakers). Anyone have thoughts regarding f113 vs. REL vs. Thiel for my situation? Unfortunately, I won't be able to do a direct comparison since no one dealer has both the Thiel and JL subs.

hma

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolstrategist
Without telling me every ridiculously low price paid...what is a reasonable best street price for the F113? I want to buy one but want to be educated.

Thanks.
I called a local dealer and they wanted $3,300. I drove an hour away and picked mine up for $2,449 + tax, gloss finish. I'm not sure what others have paid.

jeff76

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Without telling me every ridiculously low price paid...what is a reasonable best street price for the F113? I want to buy one but want to be educated.

Thanks.

coolstrategist

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Static Wick
jakeman
Looks like you have found a sub combo that's working. Are you able to pressurize your room with your current setup? How many EP600's are you running with your twin DD-18's?
At one time I had an Ultra, a pair of EP500s and a pair of EP600s in the HT. Until last week, I had a pair of ep600s and the dd18 but just sold an ep600. The Velo and Axiom work very well together, with the velo mid right sidewall and the axiom on the mid left sidewall. The subs pressurize the room nicely. I had The Bogg (Asher) for a demo a few weeks ago and there was no lack of chest thumping and pants flapping which only comes from a good sealed room and powerful articulate linear subs.

The subs are crossed at 100hz to 7 Totem Model One monitors. The DD-18 comes with SMS on board and I also have an outboard SMS which I use with the EP600. At those placements I actually need minimal equalization owing to the very linear response of both those subs. My main focus was dialling in phase between the subs and with the mains which took some time and listening. Not having the phase right can cause many other problems.

I took a picture of FR which I can post but its in my camera back home and I am currently skiing at Telluride, Colorado. FR is quite flat from 10hz to 200hz.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540
The only advantage the DD-18 has over the JL is the onboard SMS the Velo has. Performance wise, the JL is KING!
I didn't come out that way. I took a long hard look at both those subs before buying the DD-18 and price was not an issue. The FL113 has more output at 20hz but that comes with more THD. Setting the servo setting at 8 results in lower distortion than any sub I have every researched including the JL113. If one wants more output then lowering the servo does that and also causes more THD. It is still quite low by any standard. Linearity is very close but here again I believe the DD has slightly better performance across the entire band.

I have to say though that these differences are so slight as not to be audibly different when you compare the two subs. I have to cut response at 20hz with the DD at my sidewall placement so the higher output there is not a factor for me.

My suggestion is that the sonic characteristics of these subs are so close that you should let size or need for more sophisticated equalization determine which way you go.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepracing
I am heavily leaning towards the f 113 over the dd 18 but does anyone have a problem with thinking the dd 18 has to be better just due to shear size? I know the f113 has more travel but it just sounds to good to be true
Sheer size here means ...next to nothing. Why?

The JL Audio 13.5" driver can move more air,linear or pear to peak than the DD18 18" woofer. More displacement for the f113.

The overall quality of the JL is better also,built quality here. Like it or not Audioholics was very gracious and easy on Velodyne to give a five star rating for built. Five star is perfect or close,did the author ever see what a five star built sub is???? The box looks great from the outside,on the inside nothing special,yeah yeah does the job bur no attention to detail is present.Look in the JL,another class,look in Aerial Acoustics sub...again this is five star built quality. Take apart a JL,Aerial and Velodyne.


JL all the way

TheEAR

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john
How do you use the ARO with dual F112's? Do you do each one individually, or just use the Master ARO for both? After my experience with the F112/Earthquake, I'm a little concerned that one or even two bands of parametric EQ can do as good a job with two subs.Craig
Hi Craig,

Of course not all rooms give the same results. JL recommends using Master/Slave when using multiple Fathoms. You make all of you settings and run the ARO from the Master sub. If they are co-located then your single sub FR should be very similar with two, but give you another 6db output. I have my dual F113's separated by about 9' along the front wall just inside my mains. I have a room generated peak at 60hz that ARO won't touch that I am hoping to tame with an SMS-1. Want to sell yours?

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpy15
I have similar setup; Just got my f113 3 days ago and also own an Earthquake Supernova MKV-12. I'm also contemplating selling my earthquake and going with twin f113s.. let me know how you like your f112 + MKV-15 combo
Well, I tried it and I'm back to the single F112. It sounded boomier and sloppier with the two together. It also measured badly with the SMS-1 and I couldn't correct it due to the fact that I was controlling both subs with one SMS-1. I couldn't get the combined response to be flat.

How do you use the ARO with dual F112's? Do you do each one individually, or just use the Master ARO for both? After my experience with the F112/Earthquake, I'm a little concerned that one or even two bands of parametric EQ can do as good a job with two subs.
Quote:
The only advantage the DD-18 has over the JL is the onboard SMS the Velo has. Performance wise, the JL is KING!
Notwithstanding my concern above, I'm not sure I would agree that the Velo's onboard EQ is all that much better than ARO. In my thread from the other day, I showed how well the ARO flattened my room response -- and it did it quicker than a manual eq with the SMS-1.

Craig

craig john

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I am heavily leaning towards the f 113 over the dd 18 but does anyone have a problem with thinking the dd 18 has to be better just due to shear size? I know the f113 has more travel but it just sounds to good to be true

Shepracing

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

The only advantage the DD-18 has over the JL is the onboard SMS the Velo has. Performance wise, the JL is KING!

kgb540

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
Rob is right as usual.

My 3500cf HT used to open to another 8500cf space and pressurizing the room was impossible even with 2 subs. Nearfield listening helped but I didn't like the improper phaseing the subs caused when they were too far from the mains. Once I sealed off a 8ft opening and then damped the room with acoustical treatments and traps, there was a major improvement in SQ not just to the bass.

I've had as many as 5 subs in the HT but currently I'm expereincing substantial amounts of clean, dynamic, visceral, "in your chest and pants" bass with a pair of non-colocated DD-18 and EP600 subs. According to conventional wisdom matching sealed and ported subs should cause other issues, but I haven't detected any audible or measurable problems in my room.
jakeman
Looks like you have found a sub combo that's working. Are you able to pressurize your room with your current setup? How many EP600's are you running with your twin DD-18's?

Static Wick

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john
I am thinking of trying this same thing with my F112 and my Earthquake Supernova MKV-15, (well actually the Earthquake sub uses a PR instead of ports, but it's still a reflex and a sealed sub combo). Actually, I'm thinking of getting a second F112 and selling the Earthquake sub. In the meantime, I may try the combo to see how I like it.

Craig
I have similar setup; Just got my f113 3 days ago and also own an Earthquake Supernova MKV-12. I'm also contemplating selling my earthquake and going with twin f113s.. let me know how you like your f112 + MKV-15 combo

bpy15

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john
I am thinking of trying this same thing with my F112 and my Earthquake Supernova MKV-15, (well actually the Earthquake sub uses a PR instead of ports, but it's still a reflex and a sealed sub combo). Actually, I'm thinking of getting a second F112 and selling the Earthquake sub. In the meantime, I may try the combo to see how I like it.

Craig
The twin F113 club is growing!

im the man

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
Rob is right as usual.

My 3500cf HT used to open to another 8500cf space and pressurizing the room was impossible even with 2 subs. Nearfield listening helped but I didn't like the improper phaseing the subs caused when they were too far from the mains. Once I sealed off a 8ft opening and then damped the room with acoustical treatments and traps, there was a major improvement in SQ not just to the bass.

I've had as many as 5 subs in the HT but currently I'm expereincing substantial amounts of clean, dynamic, visceral, "in your chest and pants" bass with a pair of non-colocated DD-18 and EP600 subs. According to conventional wisdom matching sealed and ported subs should cause other issues, but I haven't detected any audible or measurable problems in my room.
I am thinking of trying this same thing with my F112 and my Earthquake Supernova MKV-15, (well actually the Earthquake sub uses a PR instead of ports, but it's still a reflex and a sealed sub combo). Actually, I'm thinking of getting a second F112 and selling the Earthquake sub. In the meantime, I may try the combo to see how I like it.

Craig

craig john

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiujitsu35
Yes I am the one that is selling the f113.I'm totally legit.I'm only selling because I only needed one.I will say this sub is incredlble
Believe me if I had the cash I would have jump on that F113 ....But it's more than want not a need...

Good luck..

djoel

Djoel

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Rob is right as usual.

My 3500cf HT used to open to another 8500cf space and pressurizing the room was impossible even with 2 subs. Nearfield listening helped but I didn't like the improper phaseing the subs caused when they were too far from the mains. Once I sealed off a 8ft opening and then damped the room with acoustical treatments and traps, there was a major improvement in SQ not just to the bass.

I've had as many as 5 subs in the HT but currently I'm expereincing substantial amounts of clean, dynamic, visceral, "in your chest and pants" bass with a pair of non-colocated DD-18 and EP600 subs. According to conventional wisdom matching sealed and ported subs should cause other issues, but I haven't detected any audible or measurable problems in my room.

jakeman

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepracing
...Would adding one of those fancy foldable 4 pane partitions help keep the bass in the room or does it need to actually be sealed off?

Thanks guys, learning alot.
I think those partitions are too flimsy and flexible to do much good. You need something fairly rigid to accomplish what you want.

John F. Palacio

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepracing
Is it a waste of time trying to get big hit you in the chest bass if the room cannot be sealed from the rest of your house ?

I have the def tech 7001 mains and the 3000 center all have subs and was going to just add one f113 in the rear corner.

The room itself is 12 x 20 x 8 but the back wall is completely open to the first level which in total is 5100 cubic ft. To add to that the stairs are open so do I have to try and fill the entire 2nd level 2 which would prob add another 1000 or so even with all the doors closed upstairs.


Would adding one of those fancy foldable 4 pane partitions help keep the bass in the room or does it need to actually be sealed off?

Thanks guys, learning alot.
This depends on what you mean by ?hit you in the chest? bass. Impact bass is attainable in almost all reasonable spaces. True room pressurization requires an enclosed space and the appropriate SPL to fill it. Most here do not have rooms that have been built for or retrofitted to optimize sound. I have an open floor plan house and my system is located in an impossibly large 8000 ft? room that is open to even larger spaces. I have tried many sub combinations (including dual Velo DD-18's) and currently have dual JL F113s placed within 10 of my primary seats. These subs integrate nicely into the room and give a very satisfying level of bass for music and movies (my use is 50/50). I know that in this room, I will never get the same bass effects that someone who has a sealed 2000 ft? space can achieve.

RMK!

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian

Ear, do you think there's any point in me trying to use the DefTech Supercube 1 with the f113? I'm thinking in my 2000 cu.ft. room that it just won't be of any benefit and might actually make things worse. It's not going to go nearly as low or be as tight as the f113, so wouldn't it just make things sound worse? Or am I missing something?
You can always try it... I think you might be creating more trouble than it's worth. The f113 will make your pant legs flap in a 2000 cubic ft. room. I would put the DT up for sale unless you have another room you want to use it in.


Quote:
And I haven't read the manual yet, but is it possible to daisy-chain the two and let the ARO from the Fathom do its thing with the DT in the mix?
No. The ARO will Master/Slave (daisy-chain) only with another Fathom. If I recall correctly, you can connect up to eight units. The ARO Master would control all eight Fathoms. Of course you would want to have several dedicated circuits for eight 2500 watt amplifiers.

b curry

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey
New numbers for a (presumably) working f112 are up:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/spe...subwoofer.html

Frequency response (at 2 meters)
24 to 101 Hz ?2.5 dB
Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room)
16 Hz at 80 dB SPL
108 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz
114 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz
bandwidth uniformity 94%

The rating for 25hz was omitted, does 80dB @ 16Hz though, fwiw.

http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm

Would be cool to see what he came up with for a 113 for comparative purposes.
msmith_JL,
any word on whether the initially poor Sound & Vision data was the result of a damaged product or because of testing error? I ask because in the subjective listening review by Daniel Kumin, he raved about the f112's awesome performance. If that sub was indeed defective such that the SPL capability was severely compromised, yet subjective listening showed it be a stellar performer, then I'm concerned that other Fathom owners who don't have measuring equipment or who haven't stress tested their Fathoms might also be missing out on the vast SPL capability of the sub without even knowing it because it still sounds good at non-furniture shattering levels.

tqn

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn
msmith_JL,
any word on whether the initially poor Sound & Vision data was the result of a damaged product or because of testing error? I ask because in the subjective listening review by Daniel Kumin, he raved about the f112's awesome performance. If that sub was indeed defective such that the SPL capability was severely compromised, yet subjective listening showed it be a stellar performer, then I'm concerned that other Fathom owners who don't have measuring equipment or who haven't stress tested their Fathoms might also be missing out on the vast SPL capability of the sub without even knowing it because it still sounds good at non-furniture shattering levels.
It is somewhat of a mystery. We sent a second unit to TN which tested far better (these are the results currently posted) and TN indicated that the first unit did make a "funny noise" when he tried it again. We have received both units back and they both test out identically and within spec. So, in other words, we don't really know what happened.

msmith_JL

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I'm in final stages of construction of two channel/home theater room.
My two channel equipment includes an ARC reference 3 tube preamp which
I will use for music only. This preamp has a surround processor bypass
feature which allows the SSP to control the volume of my main speakers. Pertaining to the Fathom 113, can I connect to both unbalanced AND balanced inputs simultaneously from both the LFE output of my SSP as well as the pre out of my ARC two channel preamp? Or would I need to change connections on the sub depending on the application? Also the room dimensions are 17'x27'x9'. Would one Fathom 113 be sufficient?
Thanks in advance!
Vrac

Vrac

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Vrac... as long as you don't operate both the 2ch preamp and multi-channel pre-pro at the same time you can connect to both inputs.

msmith_JL

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Vrac... as long as you don't operate both the 2ch preamp and multi-channel pre-pro at the same time you can connect to both inputs.
Would there be any harm? What could happen?

Vrac...I have a dedicated room 17x27x10 and one Fathom 13 seems to be enough for the sub/LFE content. There is a lot of LF help from runnig the Vandersteen 5As full range for HT where they go down to 20 Hz - same as the Fathom in my room. I really have "three" subs.

TD

Tdaudio

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL
Vrac... as long as you don't operate both the 2ch preamp and multi-channel pre-pro at the same time you can connect to both inputs.
How would you hook-up the 113 to your audio research, there is only one balanced input on the fathom ?

Davidmag

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian
I'm stoked to get mine, I can't wait.

Ear, do you think there's any point in me trying to use the DefTech Supercube 1 with the f113? I'm thinking in my 2000 cu.ft. room that it just won't be of any benefit and might actually make things worse. It's not going to go nearly as low or be as tight as the f113, so wouldn't it just make things sound worse? Or am I missing something?
You can always try,costs nothing.And you may find it to be a positive addition.When placed opposed to the f113.

And I would not say the Definitive is mediocre,please lets not exagerate here.

I never said Definitive was a POS ,simply not in the JL Audio class. Definitive makes very good HT subs. From very good down to mediocre there is a huge gap.

TheEAR

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidmag
How would you hook-up the 113 to your audio research, there is only one balanced input on the fathom ?

There are two balanced inputs (and two unbalanced inputs) on each Fathom.

msmith_JL

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL
There are two balanced inputs (and two unbalanced inputs) on each Fathom.
yup. see that..thanks

Davidmag

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR
You can always try,costs nothing.And you may find it to be a positive addition.When placed opposed to the f113.
So maybe try the f113 in the front corner and the DT in the back corner beside the listening position? Or both up front in the corners outside the L/R mains? And would I set the filter on the DT so it didn't attempt the deep lows to keep it from getting flabby down there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR
And I would not say the Definitive is mediocre,please lets not exagerate here.

I never said Definitive was a POS ,simply not in the JL Audio class. Definitive makes very good HT subs. From very good down to mediocre there is a huge gap.
I wasn't slamming my own sub, heck, after watching the 1st season of Rome with it this weekend, I started questioning my upgrade.

But DefTech's materials say that a SuperCube Reference would equal the output of 4 SuperCube 1's like mine. So I just figured a f113 would probably be MUCH better/greater than even the Reference, hence my comment of mediocre. Maybe I should have used "average".

jacksonian

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian
So maybe try the f113 in the front corner and the DT in the back corner beside the listening position? Or both up front in the corners outside the L/R mains? And would I set the filter on the DT so it didn't attempt the deep lows to keep it from getting flabby down there?


I wasn't slamming my own sub, heck, after watching the 1st season of Rome with it this weekend, I started questioning my upgrade.

But DefTech's materials say that a SuperCube Reference would equal the output of 4 SuperCube 1's like mine. So I just figured a f113 would probably be MUCH better/greater than even the Reference, hence my comment of mediocre. Maybe I should have used "average".

You know I have a strong feeling the largest SuperCube(non Trinity) should be in the f113 territory,SPL wise.

Now you do not buy an f113 only for is massive output. That would be a grand waste. The FATHOM lineup is the very definition of finesse,control and dynamics.
If you listen to a great drum solo by any drum great(well recorded) you will not want to go back to a mere SPL sub.

And music with synth bass or any deep bass will put a giant smile on your face. I know it did just that for me.And this is why I am hyping the JL subs so much.Before the FATHOM subs came I did not even consider JL and give much attention as I am not into car audio.No matter how great the W7 is.

TheEAR

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I often think there is way to much emphasis put on spl over sound quality. For instance on another forum (S&V), who exclusively hypes SVS, which I may add are in fact outstanding products. I find it very interesting how much emphasis they put on strictly output. I'll use this as an example since I owned a SVS PB 12plus/2 and had it together with my JL. (by the way a single JL had more output than the SVS) Yes I could have bought two SVS PB 12/2's for pretty close to the same amount that I paid for a single JL. Would I have more output with dual SVS over a single JL, yes. But would the sound quality be as good as the JL no! My HT room is 14x19. I got rid of the SVS and went with dual JL's. Now I could have bought four SVS PB 12/2 for the price I paid for the two JL's..., would I have more output..., again the answer is yes, but the sound quality would not be as good. Where would I put all these SVS in my room? If my room was big enough to hold four SVS I would probably go with dual gothams. But then again I guess I could buy 18 dual SVS for that price..., joking ! Anyhow, what Im trying to say is how much output do you need? Dual JL's have way more output than I can use now. In fact a single JL would be plenty for my room. It bothers me when I see people say the SVS HSU is way better value. Because truth be told it's not..., at least not in my case. It all boils down to what you can afford. More is not always
better.

I compare it to this and am by no means rich. But, for the sake of argument If I could afford the most expensive Porsche say 500,000 and my yearly income was 5,000,0000. Would it be a better value for me to get say a 60,000 Corvette? The answer is no, would it be cheaper yes. But the fact of the matter is if I was making that type of income I could afford the Porsche. What value would mean to me, if I was making that much money, would be getting the 500,000 Porsche for 475,000. So you see when someone ask you what is the best value sub, or state that the SVS or HSU are a better value, it is very subjective. Before you can answer that question you must find out what someone's income, is how much money they have to spend etc. What is a value to me may not be a value to you, it's based on the indivdual.

im the man

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I get what you guys are saying about the quality of the bass vs. SPL. So my question is still this, won't the DT sub just muddy up the higher quality bass from the Fathom if I try to use both?

jacksonian

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I don't think you will know until you try them together. They could work together very well, or not. My fear would be that it might reinforce a frequency - ies that the ARO was trying to control. Which means you'll need some bass management for the DT. Like I said earlier, just seems like more trouble than it's worth.

FWIW, my f113 replaced an F1200 Velodyne (older servo unit). I had a DD-15 at home to audition along with the f113. The single f113 was so much better.

To me, it looks like JL has opened the door to a new chapter in speaker design, or at least first to market. That is, large diameter VC, long throw, linear, big motor, drivers. You have SVS with the new Ultra, TC Sounds and I'm sure others not far behind. And amplifier power. The f113 with 2500 watt's peak is more power than the Beatles or Stone's toured with in the 1960's.

The f113 is so good, and with the size of your room, I really don't think you will want for more. Good luck!

b curry

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

I personally dont think that you would benefit at all using the DT along with the JL. If you were using (2) F113's thats a different story. b curry mentions a great point in the fact that the DT could, and most likely will, render an advance part of the JL's game useless, the ARO. The combo will NOT improve sound quality and if it is SPL you are after, already the JL is has proven to be the standard setter there too. If I were you I'd sell the DT (should be easy), put the money towards the JL (or another JL) and save a little to buy your wife or girlfiend a nice Valentines Day gift. You'll be much better off all the way around!!

kgb540

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian
I get what you guys are saying about the quality of the bass vs. SPL. So my question is still this, won't the DT sub just muddy up the higher quality bass from the Fathom if I try to use both?
To muddy the f113,the Definitive would have to be of Sony WM40 quality(this is a POS if there ever was one).

TRY THEM,damn you will have both.

For example I run JL subs with Klipsch(RSW) subs,and Paradigm(Seismic,Servo) subs...no issues.

I run a Velo with a Revel...NO ISSUES. As long as the gap in quality is not Grand Canyon deep.I know this is not the purist way,and not audiophile approved but it may just work great.

I listen mostly to electronic music(shame on me)and as long as it hits hard like a Mack truck,there is no slop or colorations it A ok.

TheEAR

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540
... and save a little to buy your wife or girlfiend a nice Valentines Day gift. You'll be much better off all the way around!!
Good advice from the KGB (now that the cold war is over they can give out good secrets!)

I personally wouldn't mix and match different subs. The idea for multiple subs in a room to help with bass smoothness requires that all subs are identical AFAIK.

Doesn't hurt to play around with them though and see what you prefer.

I had some movers deliver my home theatre chairs the other day. I asked them to move the Fathoms and my large Krell and centre-channel speaker. I particularly liked the look on their faces as they lifted the Fathom! Deceptively heavy indeed.

The Bogg

The Bogg

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Yeah, I think one awesome sub should be enough. It should be getting delivered today. I'm going to go ahead and list the DT to keep me from being tempted to start monkeying around with 2 subs.

jacksonian

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Alright, got the BEAST today! You should have seen me carry that thing up the stairs to the second floor by myself!

Briefly turned it on and watched a couple of trailers with the volume pretty low on the receiver. My wife came upstairs and said, "the bathroom lights are shaking uncontrollably".
I did notice just in the brief low volume demo that you guys weren't lying when you said you will feel the bass instead of just hearing it.

I'll work on setting it up completely tomorrow. Can't wait to watch some of my favorite scenes.

jacksonian

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian
Alright, got the BEAST today! You should have seen me carry that thing up the stairs to the second floor by myself!

Briefly turned it on and watched a couple of trailers with the volume pretty low on the receiver. My wife came upstairs and said, "the bathroom lights are shaking uncontrollably".
I did notice just in the brief low volume demo that you guys weren't lying when you said you will feel the bass instead of just hearing it.

I'll work on setting it up completely tomorrow. Can't wait to watch some of my favorite scenes.

He he,these "small" subs may be compact.As you can see and hear there is nothing small besides the physical size of the cabinet. AT 130lbs it is one nice chunk of sub and the quantity and quality of output....five star category.

Post your impressions,great to have more new owners of these beasts chip in and post.

TheEAR

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Congradulations jacksonian!!! very excited to hear how it works out for you!

kgb540

JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

Need to audition these JL Audio Subwoofers--F112--F113 [/b]and soon the Gotham. We have these phenomenal Subs set up for demo in our showroom. Don't buy another sub till you hear these!

zap108

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