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Question Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems ( AVForums Plasma Flat Panel Televisions )
Updated: 2008-05-23 07:15:48 (34)
Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

I have just bought a Panasonic TH-PWH50 and have a new (Grundig) Sky digibox. The Panasonic is clearly capable of producing a fantastic picture if fed a clean signal, but....I find the lip-sync delay a real pain on some channels, notably BBC 2 and News 24, and it was awful on Sky Sports the other day. But on some channels it seems barely noticeable eg ITV. Anyway, I bought a SyncBlaster scart - SVGA cable and tried that. Arghhhh!! Not only did it have no effect on the lip-sync problem, it was impossible to achieve a stable picture due to obvious (but variable) distortion of verticals, with or without separate power supply, with all other kit disconnected, every permutation of input setting on plasma and output setting on digibox. It also displaced the image, requiring both vertical and horizontal repositioning of image every time you switch between inputs, no thank-you. It is going back to Keenes this morning.

So now I have a connection problem as well as a lip-sync problem.

2 questions

Easy one (I think) first:
Does anyone make a sensible money black box convertor which converts a Sky digibox RGB scart output to a clean SVGA plasma input WITHOUT moving the image or adding any visible distortion (I anticipate a reply from Dr Sim explaining that you only get what you pay for, although I resent coughing over a ton to move an already good signal eight feet). What about cheaper boxes listed in Lektropacks and Keenes catalogues etc?

Hard one:
Does anyone make a black box with a controllable (remote, ideally) time delay for the stereo AUDIO signal? Has to be a variable delay as some channels exhibit longer delay between sound and picture than others. I hear you can do this on some high end AV receiver/amps, but I already have a top notch audio amp (Musical Fidelity A3cr pre/power) which isn't budging, and I plan to just use a Yamaha DSP E800 for surround sound with dvd's (haven't even got a proper dvd yet, just a playstation 2 which lives in another room!). The adjustable delay between front L/R and centre channels on av amps and processors is no use here as TV is only stereo (I am not getting Sky Plus either).

Failing that, I think the sad answer will have to be a 14inch tv sitting next to the unused plasma for watching news, documentaries, etc with the plasma reserved for films and drama. Then I'd go back to not noticing the lip-sync problem which in my opinion is obviously far more to do with inadequate digital broadcasting than Panasonic or Plasma picture processing. This would also have the advantage of avoiding background tv dominating the room, and, best of all, avoid the excrutiating din the plasma fan and picture buz make when listening to speech at low-to moderate sound levels. However magical with feature films and high octane crash bang blockbuster stuff (which it is) I am afraid the Panasonic Plasma is PANTS when it comes to anything QUIET like news at ten or when trying to read a book at the same time as someone else just wants to watch the telly. Should I have bought the fan-less Pioneer?

Answers: Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems ( AVForums Plasma Flat Panel Televisions )
Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Why is it that only some channels have 'lip sync' problems.. I would have thought that it would be all or none, but not some!!

Is this a problem with Sky (in which case you would see it on all types of display) or does the Plasma cause this... But again, I have to ask that if its the Plasma, then why is this not on all channels.

Jon Weaver

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

It is just the same on my still-working On digital box. It is a BBC problem in my mind. There is a tiny delay on ALL channels all the time which is only just noticeable when a fast talking face fills the screen. But it is much worse and more noticeable on BBC and sometimes others.

geordie

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Hi geordie,

I looked into the availability of a "black box" to sort out the lip synch problem before I got my Panny and its not good new I am afraid. The only product I could find was a device called "wave" from a german company called Vigatec. This can be purchased over here but at a price of ?940 (yes the number is right its not a typo!!). I spoke to a friend who is an electronics guy who explained that introducing a delay in the audio is not an easy task if you want to maintain the quality of the signal (this probably explains the serious amounts of money these companies want for their devices). I just live with the problem since it doesn't occur on all the channels like you say.

The only real fix I have found is to get seriously drunk then everything has lip synch problems, and trying to focus on the picture takes your mind off it!!!!!!!!

nutter

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

geordie,

So are you saying that 'lip-sync' problems would be present on ALL displays?

What I don't understand is why this issue is discussed as a Plamsa issue. Even the title of this post (Panasonic plasma lip-sync...) implies that this would only be seen on a Plasma.

Am I missing something??

Jon Weaver

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

this has already been discussed last week, ALL of these answers are on there!

alex f

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

While I am certainly no expert on this, I have read recent related threads and have done a fair bit of experimenting. There does seem to be a marginal but noticeable additional delay in seeing what you have already begun to hear, caused presumably by processing the picture in the plasma screen or the digibox, and I think it is happening on all channels all of the time. Certain channels (or programmes) do seem to be worse, and they are worse at different times of day unless I 3890 really am going mad. I suspect that will be down to the broadcaster and maybe the amount of data compression going on. But I think the large image size of the plasma is also making much more obvious a problem which was already there. Like I said, having rigged up my On digital box to the plasma, it too reveals or hints at a slight delay between sound and picture on BBC news 24 (where there is lots of in your face lip movement!). I think it is more noticeable on Sky though. So I think the problem may lie partly with Sky or the digibox! I was never bothered by this watching on a 26inch screen from across a large room, and didn't used to have Sky, now at 50inch it is sometimes too obvious. But the footie is fantastic, with virtually every match my team has played being shown live so far this season, and I have yet to detect a "thud of boot on ball sync" problem!

One fascinating discovery was listening to the news broadcast via terrestrial digital at the same time as watching the picture via satellite. The lip sync problem disappeared. Is this because of the increased distance the signal travels from transmitter to satellite and back, I wonder??!!!

geordie

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

BBC2 and various other channels Via SKY tv have fairly major Lip sync problems, not with all programs, but to my eyes most outside broadcasts are the worst offenders

example Last Sunday afternoon on my 29" CRT World Superbikes the sync was just appalling, and as my neighbour has sky tv with no surround AMP

i.e a Straight feed from his digibox to 24" CRT I watched his setup to check that his was also out of sync
(it was)
just as bad as mine so all this is obviously amplified on a larger screen.

as was stated in the other thread, but this problem is not just a Plasma problem, the broadcasters are much to blame for this

but most other programming is fine so not a problem.

Nike

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Quote:
Originally posted by Party Animal

example Last Sunday afternoon on my 29" CRT World Superbikes the sync was just appalling
I watched this last night (taped it). I have the audio delay adjusted correctly now, so that if I do notice a sync-problem, I know it's down to the source.

Obviously this didn't really matter during the race, but Suzi Perry looked like she had been dubbed!

Cracking racing btw. Championship decided on the last race of the season. Eat your heart out 'F1'.

Nike

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Cracking racing btw. Championship decided on the last race of the season. Eat your heart out 'F1'.

Off topic but that race was just incredible, maniacs or balls of steel

It as the most exiting Motor bike race I have ever seen, none of this "Letting my mate win stuff"

but the Lip sync in the interviews were (seconds) out not milliseconds

Joe Fernand

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Geordie

Possibly Dr John is biting his tongue so I'll jump in first.

Why resent paying Dr John ?150.00 or so (plus cables) for a small black box and some electronics when you happily pay Panasonic ?5k or so for a big bit of glass, some fans and some electronics?

You have already seen for yourself that any connection or electrical component in a signal path is only as good as the whole chain of the signal replay.

You could go through the whole range of 'cheaper' signal converters and the like and not get one that is as stable or consistent as the products John produces.

I think it must be that plasma/big screen TV is still so new but we (the collective we) still seem to have a problem with purchasing good quality ancillary components for the video side of our Home Cinema systems in the UK - I wonder how much you have spent hooking up your MF audio kit?

I wonder also how much you will be willing to pay for the Audio Delay Black Box you outline - sub ?100 or sub ?1K?

Put in an order with John for one of his black boxes and you will seriously wonder why you were trying to save ?50 or so by looking at less well executed options.

Best regards

Joe

PS The Pioneer 50" display is certainly our preferred option!

Joe Fernand

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Don't forget many of the processors / receivers have audio delaying capability to solve just this problem. Ask your suppliers for updates, Tag owners did and they now have 100ms delay. This will be increased when the dual hammerhead upgrade comes but 100ms will do just about anything so long as the video guys have made a complete mash of it all. It is the best place to do it.

The Beekeeper

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

[quote]Originally posted by Joe Fernand
[b]Geordie

Possibly Dr John is biting his tongue so I'll jump in first.

Why resent paying Dr John ?150.00 or so (plus cables) for a small black box and some electronics when you happily pay Panasonic ?5k or so for a big bit of glass, some fans and some electronics?

You have already seen for yourself that any connection or electrical component in a signal path is only as good as the whole chain of the signal replay.

You could go through the whole range of 'cheaper' signal converters and the like and not get one that is as stable or consistent as the products John produces.

I think it must be that plasma/big screen TV is still so new but we (the collective we) still seem to have a problem with purchasing good quality ancillary components for the video side of our Home Cinema systems in the UK - I wonder how much you have spent hooking up your MF audio kit?

I wonder also how much you will be willing to pay for the Audio Delay Black Box you outline - sub ?100 or sub ?1K?

Put in an order with John for one of his black boxes and you will seriously wonder why you were trying to save ?50 or so by looking at less well executed options.

Best regards

Joe

PS The Pioneer 50" display is certainly our preferred option!


Point taken, but I am in need of reassurance that any ancillary does the job properly after previous failures. The SyncBlaster wasn't exactly cheap and several people had recommended it including the dealer I bought the plasma from!! And yes, there are very expensive wires going in and out of my MF amps.
I don't see why a controllable audio delay black box should be so difficult or expensive to produce if av processors have the capability built in. Even cheap processors like the Yamaha adjust timing of different channels presumably?

geordie

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Isn't it funny how some will happly spend over ?100 on a cable, but cut corners when it comes to buying a box that actually does something?

As for Gordie's orginal post, I can't can't comment on the Keene cable as I've never looked at their design. I can say that the RGB to Plasma VGA unit was designed using some of the best components available, opting for broadcast quality parts which you won't find being used by anybody else in this market. It's got a power supply built in as if you're going to do anything useful, you do require a little bit of power.

It's all about how to get the best, the very best, out of your system.

All the best,

Dr John Sim.
J.S. Technology.

symanski

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

add my tuppance worth
Just got my Plasma set up and the RGB-VGA off Dr John Sim does a great job, I literally put it all together an hour ago and the Picture is great

BBC2 has a LIP SYNC delay but as far as I can see 99% of the other stuff Looks in sync (or not noticable)

So all in all a very happy bunny here



Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Quote:
Originally posted by ijwoo1
As just about everyone agrees on the delay of 60-80ms, why does the Arcam DV88P only delay audio by 50mS when using the progressive output ?
I believe that John Dawson answered a similar question on the DVD forum. Basically the DV88P is an *NTSC* progressive solution. 3 (half) frames at 60Hz is 1/20 of a second which is 50ms. If it did PAL (officially) it would need a delay of 3 half f 3890 rames at 50Hz or 60ms.

I suspect that almost everyone can't notice this 10ms (=1/100 s) difference but what may be happening is that some projectors or plasmas introduce an extra frame of delay. This would mean a required delay of 67ms and 80ms for NTSC and PAL respectively. The difference of 17ms probably isn't quite noticeable whereas 30ms almost certainly is.

Another thought is that perhaps some projectors and plasmas have no delay on a progressive NTSC image (they don't need to do anything) but require an extra frame delay on PAL for rescaling. This assumes a 480 line display. This is kind of a guess though.

Charles.

baileych

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Digital audio delays are made by:
Felston DD340 and DD540 for $204 and $230 respectively www.felston.com
Primare (Delay Box) for about $375, www.Primare.com
Alchemy2 for $399 to $499 www.Alchemy2.com

Nexsen

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

UPDATE:

Felston has a new 4 input digital audio delay which supercedes its Dd340 and DD540 and sells for only $249. It isn't currently available in the EU due to the WEEE registration required in each EU country but hopefully will be at least in the UK soon. It features direct numeric delay entry, 36 presets, and even adjusts down to 1/3 ms and is supported with full discrete IR commands.

Nexsen

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

J.S. Technology Digital Audio Delay £ 99.

What I wanted to do with this design is provide an effective solution for lip-sync, which had a high quality LCD screen so you could see what type of frequency and the length of delay easily.

And since it doesn't decode the digital signal, it can't degrade the sound quality. Digital in, digital out. No modification, just a delay!

All the best,

Dr John Sim.

symanski

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Like your design both the Alchemy2 and Felston products delay the bitstream and never decode the s/pdif signal too but my guess is that the Primare does decode and in the process must lose the user data. I say that because they make a "feature claim" of recognizing 44.1 Khz CD audio and automatically going into by-pass. That would make no sense if they weren't decoding and losing user data (CD text) would it? CD audio would pass through your unit as well as the Alchemy and Felston with "all" bits intact (including CD text) so why worry about bypassing?

Nexsen

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Let's nail this sync problem for all you guys who haven't noticed it yet.... or realised what's going on...

A sync problem occurs on plasma screens because of the conversion from an interlaced TV picture to a progressive scanned picture... (and any other processing needed to display the pic)...it makes the video late by about 60 to 80mS...

Add to the problem that due to bandwidth, bit rates and simply because the odd broadcaster can't be bothered you can also get sound sync problems with digital TV transmissions.. both off air DTV and Sky...

Now, whether you notice depends on whether:
1. you are sensitive to it anyway
2. the digital TV audio is delayed or advanced
3. you are watching a DVD with similar errors
4. the video content - if it has scenes that rely on being in sync

True, the Vigatec wave device cures all these problems but at ?940 its ju 3890 st too expensive... and I can't find any other devices.!!

True, an excellent quality professional digital audio effects unit such as the TC Electronic M-One (?275) can also be used to cure your analogue sound sync problems...

To expand on the DVD issue - I proved yesterday with Party Animal that a 100% accurate sound sync DVD looks awful because the sound is on time and the video is delayed by the plasma... Another music DVD we tested on the PC showed an audio delay of 40mS as part of the DVD authoring and so when this was viewed on the plasma the 40mS delay partly cancelled out the plasma delay so it looked virtually OK...

The sync problem is real but it depends on a few factors and primarily whether you are sensitive to it... unfortunately I am, I can't stand it, so I have fixed it... with the M-One.... I find I have to adjust it according to the video source anywhere from 60ms to as high as 110mS. Slowly but surely AV amps will all eventually have an audio delay feature built in... some mega priced units already have...

On the interface box point Geordie - you got the best plasma, so go buy the best black box too... the JS boxes are superb (I have both the VGA and YUV boxes)... if its quality you want, don't mess about, just do it...! You won't be disappointed....

And finally (as per ITV news)....
Party Animal has finally got sorted with his plasma (long story!) but it looks bloody fantastic on his custom built wall!!!!

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

And finally (as per ITV news)....
Party Animal has finally got sorted with his plasma (long story!) but it looks bloody fantastic on his custom built wall!!!!

Thanks R22FLYER for your help setting it up, still hav,nt stopped drooling yet, feel like a little kid at Christmas



http://members.lycos.co.uk/chris_pro...risPlasma9.jpg

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Just wanted to add a little to this.

I have been to look at plasma displays that have had issues with RGB picture. These folk were using NON JohnSim transcoders. I am not saying that others don't work just that Johns does.

The way the Panasonic works is that it loads up memory banks for geometry and other settings dependant on the incoming signal type. One of the services I now carry out when doing calibrations of these devices is to correct geometric problem in the service menu so that there is ltd overscan and the image is centred correctly in face of panel (with the factory defaults the user sees set at mid points....). This negates having to faff around moving things everytime somebody accidentaly presses "normalise" etc.It also means the nromal setttings for brightness, contrast, hue, sharpness, greyscale etc are optimised so you can play around then go back to the correct setting by just pressing "normalise" rather than the other way around....

It may be that the use of an offboard processor that can address the panel at its native resolution, bypassing on board de-interlacing and scaling, may reduce lip sync errors.


BeeKeeper: The Xantus Terranex scaler introduces a 7 FRAME delay.....Do you think that could cause problems

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Party Animal,
very nice set up! Ms Williams looks superb.

Gordon,
7 frame delay? Must be a serious amount of processing being done, and predicting motion - not easy! That's 280ms of delay, before the plasma screen. Your brain already has to compensate for delays in your ears (180ms from memory), but this would seriously push this beyond any threshold you may have!

All the best,

John.
Currently got Moby on very loud - Faithless and Leftfield earlier. Wonderful.

symanski

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon, Convergent-AV
BeeKeeper: The Xantus Terranex scaler introduces a 7 FRAME delay.....Do you think that could cause problems
Luckily it is only my tide over processor until I get my cheese box back.

7 frames, I thought 3 was bad enough!

The Beekeeper

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Of course, I neglected to mention that the Terranex has the ability to delay audio to keep them in sync.

John,
Yes there's quite a lot of processing going on in it.....

Gordon

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

[quote][The sync problem is real but it depends on a few factors and primarily whether you are sensitive to it... unfortunately I am, I can't stand it, so I have fixed it... with the M-One.... I find I have to adjust it according to the video source anywhere from 60ms to as high as 110mS. Slowly but surely AV amps will all eventually have an audio delay feature built in... some mega priced units already have...

Where can you obtain this device, please. Price seems more sensible.

geordie

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Quote:
Originally posted by symanski
Party Animal,
very nice set up! Ms Williams looks superb.


she Looks great, But I have a feeling she would eat me alive


"What a way to go though"

Jon Weaver

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Would this lip sync problem be any different on a modern 100hz CRT?.

I would guess that there is almost as much (if not more) processing going on as there is on a Plasma.

I already have a Philips CRT, which is pretty much king with regards to the amount of picture processing that it does and lip-sync has never really been a problem, except on some extreme Sky channels.

Jon Weaver

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Do we know if lip sync is an issue with a good progressive scan DVD player. I demoed a Panasonic Plasma with Arcam DV88p progressive player and I tried many discs, one of my tests was to specifically look for the lip sync issue. I'm quite sensitive to it but I couldn't see it at all.

Anyone else have any thoughts or experience on this???

John

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

100hz TV's aren't de-interlacing usually. The de-interlacing is where the bulk of the dealy is induced to unlikely to be problmes there.

Progressive DVD players. Well it depends how they do the de-interlacing and whether they have audio delay built in. Original DV88 has delay on board. New DV88plus has delay built in to Zoran decoder. DVD2800 from Denon has no delay as far as I remember.

Using a DV88 with a Panasnic plasma the plasma has no de-interlacing to do only scaling. Scaling, likely as not, creates less delay than the de-interlacing so if the audio delay has been fixed in DVD player any further delay should be minimal and probably not much of an issue (which is what I've found with this combo)

Gordon

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Quote:
Originally posted by steelej
Do we know if lip sync is an issue with a good progressive scan DVD player.

Anyone else have any thoughts or experience on this???

I think you've probably seen my post on this very subject. I haven't really got to the bottom of it yet.

My DV88P, even with "Progressive" audio delay selected still has noticeable lip sync issues. I'm only viewing on a projector at the moment, so I can't be sure whether the issue is projector or DV88P related. For some reason it only seems to be noticeable on PAL Progressive though. NTSC is fine. Also I've noticed that DTS soundtracks are worse for lip sync, but again only on PAL Progressive.

If I use the normal component output from the DV88P, there is absolutely no lip sync problem. This to me suggests the DV88P is not delaying the audio sufficiently to compensate for the deinterlacing overhead.

I'm waiting now to get a PLASMA so I can narrow the problem down a bit. Reading all of the other posts it would seem that something like the M One or the delay feature in the more expensive Amp/processors is needed to cater for all the different delays under different conditions and inherent in different sources. I think thats where its heading.

The pain then will be having to adjust the delay to suit different sources. Not sure how my wife is going to get on with that !

ijwoo1

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

Quote:
Originally posted by r22flyer


it makes the video late by about 60 to 80mS...


As just about everyone agrees on the delay of 60-80ms, why does the Arcam DV88P only delay audio by 50mS when using the progressive output ?

I know its all about how sensitive you are to lip sync, but is it possible that I'm noticing a 1 frame delay ? Or is something else contributing to the problem ?
 
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[True, an excellent quality professional digital audio effects unit such as the TC Electronic M-One (?275) can also be used to cure your analogue sound sync problems... ]

Where can you obtain the M-One?

ijwoo1

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

[True, an excellent quality professional digital audio effects unit such as the TC Electronic M-One (?275) can also be used to cure your analogue sound sync problems... ]

Where can you obtain the M-One?

geordie

Panasonic plasma lip-sync and other problems

The TC Electronics M-One is available at most music retailers such as Academy of Sound... I bought mine from Sound Control in Leeds but for online ordering try SoundsLive.co.uk and go to effects processors and its in the list...

Its a 1U rack mount module with multi effects - select stereo delay and that's it... the quality is so good its transparent (doesn't degrade the incoming signal)...

Or try Ebay... the odd one pops up there...



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