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Question Phoenix AZ HDTV ( AVS Forum Local HDTV Info and Reception )
Updated: 2008-05-23 09:31:53 (5902)
Phoenix AZ HDTV

Digital/HD Channel Lineup for Metro Phoenix. Lloyd (from the AZ HDTV Forums - link in my profile) has developed a Google spreadsheet outling the digital and HD channels that are available from all providers to the Metro Phoenix area. This grid is much more useful than the list that was previously included in this post.

Metro Phoenix Digital/HD Channel Grid

Clear QAM Channel Lineup. The following is the clear QAM lineup available on standard Cox systems, which includes most of the Phoenix area except for some areas of Tempe and Glendale. A clear QAM tuner and subscription to basic cable are required to receive these channels.
Code:
RF Ch    Resolution  Cox  Name       Remap  Affiliation
072-5*   528x480i    14   AZNEWS            
076-1    1280x720p   710  KSAZ-DT    0.710  Fox HD
076-2    1920x1080i  706  KASW-DT    0.706  CW HD
080-4    544x480i    21   KPAZ              TBN
080-5    544x480i    06   KASW              CW
080-6    544x480i    17   KPPX              ION
080-7    544x480i    13   KAZT              AZ TV
080-8    544x480i    19   KTVW              Univision
081-77#  544x480i    07   Cox 7             
085-11   528x480i    2    CSPAN             
085-12   528x480i    125  CSPAN2            
086-24*  528x480i    96   HSN               
087-11*  528x480i    500  PPVPB             
087-15*  528x480i    1    CLIC              
088-1    528x480i    650  NBAB              
095-1%   544x480i    22   LEASED            
101-2    528x480i    115  MCTV              
101-12   528x480i    122  Pentagon          
102-8*   528x480i    16   TBS               
103-1    544x480i    9    KUTP              MNTV
103-3*   544x480i    99   know99            
103-4*   544x480i    11   PHX11             
103-5*   528x480i    8    KAET              PBS
103-6*   544x480i    15   KNXV              ABC
103-7*   544x480i    5    KPHO              CBS
103-8*   544x480i    12   KPNX              NBC
103-9*   544x480i    10   KSAZ              Fox
103-10*  544x480i    3    KTVK              Ind
105-1    1280x720p   708  KAET-DT-1  0.708  PBS HD
105-2    1920x1080i  712  KPNX-DT-1  0.712  NBC HD
105-3    704x480i    80   KAET-DT-2  0.80   KAET Create
105-4    704x480i    83   KPNX-DT-2  0.83   NBC Weather+
105-5    704x480i    88   KAET-DT-3  0.85   PBS World
106-1    1280x720p   715  KNXV-DT-1  0.715  ABC HD
106-2    1920x1080i  705  KPHO-DT-1  0.705  CBS HD
106-4*   704x480i    85   KPHO-DT-2  0.85   CBS 5 Weather Now
106-5*   704x480i    95   KNXV-DT-2  0.95   GoAZ.TV (traffic)
108-1    1920x1080i  703  KTVK-DT    1.703  KTVK HD
108-3*   1280x720p   709  KUTP-DT-1  0.709  MNTV HD
110-3    528x480i    97   TVGC              
110-4    528x480i    20   KTAZ              Telemundo
110-5    528x480i    18   WGN
* May show on a different subchannel due to nonsequential programs
# May not map on all tuners
% 64QAM modulation instead of the normal 256

Cable TV Channel Frequencies. Users of MythTV and other PC tuning cards can use the Cable TV Channel Frequency Chart in conjuction with the Clear QAM Channel Lineup above to calculate cable QAM frequencies needed to tune the unencrypted channels.

Cable TV Channel Frequeny Chart
  1. Use the Clear QAM List to find the desired Cox channel and locate the corresponding RF Channel number.
  2. Then locate that RF Channel number in the Channel Designation-EIA/NCTA column in the Cable TV Chart.
  3. Now look across to the Visual Carrier-Standard column to find the corresponding Base Frequency.
  4. Add 1.75 to this number to calculate the applicable cable frequency.
For example: Cox Channel 705 (CBS-KPHO) is RF Channel 106 in the Clear QAM List. This equates to a Base Frequency of 685.25 in the Cable TV Chart. Adding 1.75 results in a QAM Frequency of 687, the same number displayed in the Cox Diagnostics Display screens.

Cox SDV Channels.
Code:
109 Cox Real Estate 2
110 Daystar
112 INSP
113 EWTN
114 BYU-TV
125 C-SPAN 2
126 C-SPAN 3
133 DIY
144 Fox Reality Channel
155 BET Jazz
156 Great American Country
157 Fuse
158 G4
159 Logo
163 Fit TV
170 Fox College Sports Atlantic
172 Fox College Sports Pacific
173 Fuel
405 TV Chile
410 De Pelicula
411 De Pelicula Clasico
412 CineLatino
413 VeneMovies
417 History en Espanol
418 Discovery en Espanol
422 Discovery Familia
423 TOON Disney en Espanol
424 Boomerang en Espanol
425 Sorpresa
430 MTV Tres
432 Bandamax
433 VideoRola
434 mun2
438 ESPN Deportes
439 Fox Sports en Espanol
440 GoITV
444 CNN en Espanol
445 Canal Sur
449 EWTN Espanol
500 iNDEMAND Previews
601-606 ESPN Game Plan / ESPN Full Court
650 NBA League Pass Preview
651-659 NBA League Pass / MLS Direct Kick
671-684 MLB Extra Innings / NHL Center Ice
840 Public Safety
850 Public Safety
851 Public Safety
853 Public Safety
854 Public Safety
856 Public Safety
857 Public Safety
DTV Elections. All Phoenix stations have made their final DTV elections for the channels they will use once the trasnsition is complete and analaog channels are turned off. Here is the new lineup:

Code:
 8  KAET  PBS
10  KSAZ  Fox
12  KPNX  NBC
15  KNXV  ABC
17  KPHO  CBS
20  KPAZ  TBN
24  KTVK  Independent
26  KUTP  MN
33  KTVW  Univision
39  KTAZ  Telemundo
49  KASW  CW
51  KPPX  ion
Points of Contact

KTVK-DT (IND 3/24) POC:
Jim Cole: jim_cole@azfamily.com (602-207-3369)
http://www.azfamily.com/customerservice/HelpCenter.do

KPHO-DT (CBS 5/17) POC:
General Manager: cbs5gm@news5.tv
Technical: cbs5eng@news5.tv
Seth Parker (Programming Director): Seth.Parker@kpho.com
Jon Thorwaldson (Engineering Supervisor): Jon.Thorwaldson@kpho.com
Ed Sutton?? (Head Engineer): esutton@mdp.com

KAET-DT (PBS 8/29) POC:
kaet@asu.edu
Greg Giczi: Greg.Giczi@asu.edu
Dennis Poe (Viewer Services): Dennis.Poe@asu.edu
Viewer Services: 480-965-2308
Reception Problems: 480-965-3506
Reception Problems (after hours): 480-965-0155
Digital: digieight@asu.edu

KSAZ-DT (FOX 10/31) POC:
Gerry Grunig: ggrun926@foxtv.com (602-262-5106)
Jim McDermaid: jmcde276@foxtv.com (602-262-5122)
Tom Lewis: tom.lewis@foxtv.com
Master Control: 602-262-5119/5128

KPNX-DT (NBC 12/36) POC:
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/contact/
Karl Voss: kvoss@kpnx.com (602-261-6148)

KNXV-DT (ABC 15/56) POC:
Ryan Stewart: rstewart@abc15.com
Programming - Programming@abc15.com
Engineering - engineering@abc15.com
Charles Whitlatch (Transmission Systems Engineer): cwhitlatch@abc15.com

KUTP-DT (MN 45/26) POC:
Gerry Grunig: ggrun926@foxtv.com (602-262-5106)
Jim McDermaid: jmcde276@foxtv.com (602-262-5122)
Tom Lewis: tom.lewis@foxtv.com
Master Control: 602-262-5119/5128
http://www.upn45phoenix.com/about/contact.shtml

KASW-DT (CW 61/49) POC:
Jim Cole: jim_cole@azfamily.com (602-207-3369)
http://www.quick6.com/
NOTE: If program is not in HD, try calling the main number (602-207-3333, press 1 to get to the newsroom, then ask to be transferred to engineering.

Answers: Phoenix AZ HDTV ( AVS Forum Local HDTV Info and Reception )
Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy
CBS and ABC not coming through in HD and I live 2.7 miles from the towers on top of South Mountain.

I'm scratching my head. The Direct TV installer came out today and installed my dish and a antenna attached to the dish. NBC and Fox come in, but ABC breaks up and CBS doesn't come in at all. The thing I can't figure out is all 4 major networks broadcast from South Mountain and I'm close enough that I thought the channels would come in perfectly.

Is there anything I can do to improve reception or are there any antennas that are recommended?
I'd be more worried about too much signal than anything else at that distance. You have a good chance of overdriving the input with anything resembling a decent antenna.. CBS is broadcasting at a full MW (more than anyone else in Phoenix IIRC) so this would fit nicely with the "too much strength" theory. If you have a 2-way splitter around, you can hook that up to see if it helps attenuate the signal and give you more reliable reception. I wouldn't recommend it for the long-term, but it can be used to help determine if you really are getting too much signal.

coyoteaz

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy
CBS and ABC not coming through in HD and I live 2.7 miles from the towers on top of South Mountain.

I'm scratching my head. The Direct TV installer came out today and installed my dish and a antenna attached to the dish...

Is there anything I can do to improve reception or are there any antennas that are recommended?
If you are directly north of S. Mt. you will have better luck with that antenna, as it points the same direction your dish points...not exactly the optimum for DT unless the towers are directly south of you. It is also not even very directional, and may even be an omni (if so, disregard the first part of this reply). More directionality means less multipath reception issues = better OTA DT reception.

I would try a Zenith Silver Sensor first, as that is the indoor antenna folks seem to have the best luck with. Also, certain DTV boxes (notably the HR10-250 DTivo) are susceptible to overload, and as close as you are that is a distinct possibility. You can get an attenuator, but if you have a 4-way or even a 2-way splitter lying around, try that first (no connection to the extra port) as that will knock the signal down a little. Tivocommunity.com has lots of threads on that.

I doubt you really have multipath, but it you are in an area with a lot of buildings or are shooting through trees, you might. Most folks should be able to pick up DT on a paperclip at that distance. I am 12 miles away and get perfect reception from a chunk of twinlead (in a dipole arrangement) taped to a window.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I am also near S Pointe Mountain but I think Iím on the other side. I'm at 48th street and Guadalupe. (5 miles SW of towers) I was wondering if its possible to mount an antenna next a dish satellite using dish's hardware (my dish on the roof held by bricks on some kind of base plate which looks like a place for two dishes) I am thinking about the antennasdirect DB2 but this is a Multi-directional antenna and antenna web says I need a Medium Directional Antenna. I can't have to big of an antenna because of my location and I like the DB2 because its small. I tried all the indoor antennas (radio shack, silver sensor) none of them worked correctly. So I have to go outdoor... Your help is appreciated.

wondergt

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Thanks for all the replies.

I got up on my roof today and noticed that the winegard says that it is amplified yet the cable that would seem to be the one that runs to the amplifier was cut and there was no amp to be found?? I have no clue if this is standard practice for DirecTV installers, but I can't see any reason to not hook up the amp. Sounds like I may not need it anyway.

As far as splitting the signal I'm concerned I won't get ABC or Fox if I do that. I went out and picked up a small indoor antenna (RCA ANT401) and have been able to place it so I get everything but CBS. When I turn it's amp off I get NBC, PAX, and UPN only.

If this is a flaw in the receiver is there another receiver that can handle strong signals better? I'm going to try more antennas until I find one that works but I'm losing hope on being able to watch CBS in HD.

dapercy

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergt
I am also near S Pointe Mountain but I think Iím on the other side. I'm at 48th street and Guadalupe. (5 miles SW of towers) I was wondering if its possible to mount an antenna next a dish satellite using dish's hardware (my dish on the roof held by bricks on some kind of base plate which looks like a place for two dishes) I am thinking about the antennasdirect DB2 but this is a Multi-directional antenna and antenna web says I need a Medium Directional Antenna. I can't have to big of an antenna because of my location and I like the DB2 because its small. I tried all the indoor antennas (radio shack, silver sensor) none of them worked correctly. So I have to go outdoor... Your help is appreciated.
Not sure if I'm answering your question but my outdoor antenna is secured to the post behind the satellite dish and it appears to be a standard fitting.

dapercy

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy
Thanks for all the replies.

I got up on my roof today and noticed that the winegard says that it is amplified yet the cable that would seem to be the one that runs to the amplifier was cut and there was no amp to be found?? I have no clue if this is standard practice for DirecTV installers, but I can't see any reason to not hook up the amp. Sounds like I may not need it anyway.
At that distance, you should be able to pick up stations with nothing more than a split twinlead in a window like TomCat uses. Any outdoor antenna is plenty.

Quote:
As far as splitting the signal I'm concerned I won't get ABC or Fox if I do that. I went out and picked up a small indoor antenna (RCA ANT401) and have been able to place it so I get everything but CBS. When I turn it's amp off I get NBC, PAX, and UPN only.
My guess is you live in a house with stucco siding. The chicken wire in stucco pretty much kills all RF, so what signal you do see has probably bounced around a bit and is coming in through a window. Reception of ABC and Fox should not be an issue with a drop in signal strength from your outdoor, again due to distance. You don't need much in the way of signal strength for digital as long as it's clean. Besides, you are just adding in the splitter as a test, so worst case, you would take it out and still have what you had before.

Quote:
If this is a flaw in the receiver is there another receiver that can handle strong signals better? I'm going to try more antennas until I find one that works but I'm losing hope on being able to watch CBS in HD.
This isn't really a flaw in the receiver. Most receivers are designed to lock on to as weak of a signal as possible. Unfortunately this means that they have very sensitive electronics that can be overdriven by a very powerful station at close range. It shouldn't do any damage, but it will prevent you from being able to receive stronger channels.

coyoteaz

Phoenix AZ HDTV

All you have to do is rescan when you connect the cable wire to the tuner?

I just tried my new (30 min old) Samsung 5667w using autoprogram off the air with Cox Expanded cable connected but it found no channels. I tried CABLE. It gives me a choice of STANDARD, HRC or IRC . I tried off the air, off the cable, and off the choice of both Cable and Air but it can't find any channels. The analog I moved worked fine. Appreciate any ideas?

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2
All you have to do is rescan when you connect the cable wire to the tuner?

I just tried my new (30 min old) Samsung 5667w using autoprogram off the air with Cox Expanded cable connected but it found no channels. I tried CABLE. It gives me a choice of STANDARD, HRC or IRC . I tried off the air, off the cable, and off the choice of both Cable and Air but it can't find any channels. The analog I moved worked fine. Appreciate any ideas?

Are you saying that you cannot find any channels? If you're trying to get the QAM channels using Cox and you do not have their service, as it appears from your post, you may want to check to see if Cox has a filter on the line. At least that is what has been mentioned in this thread before when people have connected a Cox line to their tv's internal tuner and no hd locals show up. A filter on the line will stop you from getting hd locals the way you're trying to.

If I'm wrong someone can correct me.

AFH

Phoenix AZ HDTV

AFH, you are correct, though many areas of town no longer have traps/filters installed. From what I understand, these traps stop digital signals while allowing analog signals to go through. I don't know what the procedure is to get a trap removed. If you call, it may be difficult to get a CSR who understands the question, just keep trying.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

That's correct, I can't find "any" channels. I have Cox's expanded (40+) channels that came thru on my analog a couple hrs ago. After hooking the Samsung up, I cant find any channels, only snow.

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I just read about the Source button. When I press it It says "No imput devices are plugged in". I know they are, I can see them! I tested all cables and they are tight.

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

This certainly sounds like something other than a trap/filter on the line. I would look for some options that tell the TV what inputs to use for video, audio, etc. Oftentimes you have to tell the TV that Input1/Vid1 is being used with Component cables or something to that effect.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

It's just a bare TV hooked to a cable, split off to HS Internet, as you can see is working fine so I know it isn't the cabeling. Selections on screen are just basic: TV - Cable -Standard with nothing else changed. I don't get it. Brand new TV and I cant see a thing .....Bummer!!

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Ok, I'm confused. Are you saying:

That you replaced an old analog TV with a new Samsung DLP HDTV model HL-R5667W?

That you are simply trying to get the same Cox Expanded analog channels that you got with your old set?

That when you connect the cable from the wall to the ANT 1 IN (Cable) on the TV, you get no channels at all?

Have you tried connecting something to the ANT 2 IN (Air) just to see if you get anything there?

I think some of us are/were under the impression you were trying to get HD channels using an integrated HD tuner.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Everything you have said is the actual case. Yes, I tried ANT 2 IN (AIR) with identical results. Thanks for the attempts at help, you guys always come thru.

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

It's a shame you're having trouble with a new TV, but maybe a call to the retailer will get you a fix as soon as possible. The only other thing I would suggest is connecting the old TV back up just to make sure something didn't coincidently happen to your cable. But then, you've probably already tired that.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I finally called Samsung and they think it's a bad tuner. They will send someone out to look at it (first part of September). This is an area of over one and a half million people!! I can't believe it takes so long.

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Try over 3 million and growing too fast for many businesses to keep up, especially those that are not local. Authorized Service Centers are not noted for speed. Depending on where you bought it, if it was locally, you might have had better luck calling them to simply get a replacement unit instead of waiting for factory service.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2
I finally called Samsung and they think it's a bad tuner. They will send someone out to look at it (first part of September). This is an area of over one and a half million people!! I can't believe it takes so long.

Dave, is right. You'll be better off just returning it to the store where you bought it from.

AFH

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Unfortunately, its Butterfly Photo in N.Y. (Internet ordered for $2040.00)

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Yeah, I was afraid of that. But, that's the chance you take with mail order. Usually it works out, in this case it didn't. I'm sure they'll get it fixed and, since you aren't getting HD service yet anyway, you aren't really missing much. Good luck and let us know!

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Has anybody heard when Cox plans on adding additional HD channels to the lineup? Specifically, ESPN 2 and TNT-HD.

TIA

Charlie_Phogg

Phoenix AZ HDTV

No, not specifically, but Omaha is adding TNT-HD in early/mid September and vegggas is expecting it to be added in Las Vegas between then and sometime in October. Emails to Cox have resulted in no useful information for Phoenix, but I'd bet we will get it during that same timeframe.

I have heard absolutely nothing about ESPN2-HD and I don't think they even have a national agreement with Cox yet, though I could be wrong about that. FWIW, TNT just agreed to one and that is why it will start showing up in Cox markets. Anyway, until that happens, it's highly doubtful any Cox markets will get it. I would suspect though that an agreement will be reached and it will come as competition heats up between cable and sat.

Stay tuned for more rumors and propaganda.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Forgive me if this is old info, and while this isn't truly an OTA reception issue, I decided to post here because it probably might apply to a lot of PHX HD viewers (so forgive me twice).

I was just setting up a second HR10-250 Tivo, which I know a lot of you also have. I was tooling around in the DirecTV HD channels when I stumbled on a HD broadcast of the D-backs/Mets game direct from the BOB . I was not really expecting this, and I'm not sure why I'm getting it, but I'm guessing it is not a mistake. I was in the group of channels that are MLBEI HD channels, when I saw this game listed on channel 95. Curious as to whether it was available PPV individually, and wondering about the price, I clicked in to see. Voila...instant game. I double checked purchases, and its not listed (whew!) and it is not a true MLBEI game, at least for the PHX market.

So, I still wonder why, but I'm not complaining. It is a simulcast of the FSAZ game on SD channel 649, so maybe if you are in PHX and get FSAZ as your regional sports channel you get it automatically, or maybe it has something to do with the O&O status of KSAZ (KSAZ/KUTP/FSAZ are owned by News Corp, which allows PHX subs to also get KTTV-DT in HD from LA).

At any rate, this means two things:

1. Local production of D-backs is (occasionally at least) in HD, which means that we probably aren't too far from HD MLB on channel 3.1

2. Whenever the D-backs are on FSAZ, it might pay HD DTV subs to check channel 95 or other channels in that area to see if there is a HD version.

OK, now its time to see if they can lose in HD, too.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergt
I am also near S Pointe Mountain but I think Iím on the other side. I'm at 48th street and Guadalupe. (5 miles SW of towers) I was wondering if its possible to mount an antenna next a dish satellite...antenna web says I need a Medium Directional Antenna. I can't have to big of an antenna because of my location and I like the DB2 because its small. I tried all the indoor antennas (radio shack, silver sensor) none of them worked correctly. So I have to go outdoor... Your help is appreciated.
One problem with your location is that most stations notch that direction out. That is not to say that folks in your area won't get DT, because you are still close enough to get it, but since along that axis there is no appreciable population from, what, 10-15 miles away all the way to the Tuscon coverage area, it makes sense for the PHX stations to engineer their antennas to be more directional toward the rest of the valley, which is exactly what they do.

That means a couple things. At 5 miles you will see less direct signal than most others at 5 miles, but probably not less than normally seen from other directions at 10-15 miles (IOW, still plenty of signal). You might also see more reflected signal than would be normal, which can be an issue. Or not.

Bigger is usually more directional (which you need), and higher directionality usually means more gain (which you don't need, and can be a problem, though easily remedied). Remember that most of the antennaweb info, good as it is, is based on analog reception techniques, which are significantly different from DT reception techniques. IOW, they do not really concern themselves with multipath as DT viewers typically must, and they assume you want to receive all SD stations, which you probably don't. Since all HD stations of merit come from exactly the same place (give or take) using the highest directionality you can find can only help you, regardless of what AW says.

Also, the farther you can mount your antenna away from other structure, including a DBS dish, the better, because having structure within the proximity of a wavelength or so actually can detune the directionality. It may need its own mast, and it will probably do better outside, and high.

Yagis, by the time they get super-directional, get to be 15 feet long or so. I recommend a reflector such as a mesh dish or the Channel Master 4228 for your location, as they are very directional, get UHF, and are not all that large.

With that much gain, you might also need an attenuator. The RatShack 15 dB variable is ideal for this job.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat
So, I still wonder why, but I'm not complaining. It is a simulcast of the FSAZ game on SD channel 649, so maybe if you are in PHX and get FSAZ as your regional sports channel you get it automatically, or maybe it has something to do with the O&O status of KSAZ (KSAZ/KUTP/FSAZ are owned by News Corp, which allows PHX subs to also get KTTV-DT in HD from LA).

At any rate, this means two things:

1. Local production of D-backs is (occasionally at least) in HD, which means that we probably aren't too far from HD MLB on channel 3.1

2. Whenever the D-backs are on FSAZ, it might pay HD DTV subs to check channel 95 or other channels in that area to see if there is a HD version.

OK, now its time to see if they can lose in HD, too.
This has been happening all season. Occasional games are produced in HD, and air on Cox 722 and D* 95.
The D-Backs do all production (HD and otherwise) themselves, so 3.1 would air them if they existed, but all HD-produced games thus far have been FSN and there hasn't been any specific word of doing any on KTVK. Doing an HD game on 3.1 wouldn't make sense from a viewership point of view, because it isn't carried on any cable or satellite provider, while the FSN games are carried on both Cox and D*. I would wager that the majority of HD viewers in Phoenix subscribe to either Cox or D* just for the additional channel offerings, especially those who are sports fans.
Theoretically, if the D-Backs did do HD for a game on KTVK, the best idea would be to air it on KASW-DT since that is carried by Cox, so at least a larger number of viewers can see it. Since Belo owns both stations, and they are both operated from the same location, it could be done easily.

On a more off-topic note, is the game on D* 95 carried on a Phoenix spot beam or CONUS?

coyoteaz

Phoenix AZ HDTV

TomCat, because the Fox station is O&O (which you obviously know), DirecTV shows all home FSN games in HD for locals on that channel. If you go to this site: http://msn.foxsports.com/name/HD you will see that all the O&O regional FSN's will do HD games in that particular market. At this point, while watching the Dbacks in HD, it's still like watching an HD turd.

Deftones17

Phoenix AZ HDTV

TomCat, way ahead of you, set it to record Monday at 7 last night already.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2
I finally called Samsung and they think it's a bad tuner. They will send someone out to look at it (first part of September). This is an area of over one and a half million people!! I can't believe it takes so long.
Hope you get it fixed before the fall season starts, but that's going to be cutting it close.

Mac The Knife

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
...Doing an HD game on 3.1 wouldn't make sense from a viewership point of view, because it isn't carried on any cable or satellite provider, while the FSN games are carried on both Cox and D*. I would wager that the majority of HD viewers in Phoenix subscribe to either Cox or D* just for the additional channel offerings, especially those who are sports fans.
Theoretically, if the D-Backs did do HD for a game on KTVK, the best idea would be to air it on KASW-DT since that is carried by Cox, so at least a larger number of viewers can see it. Since Belo owns both stations, and they are both operated from the same location, it could be done easily.

On a more off-topic note, is the game on D* 95 carried on a Phoenix spot beam or CONUS?
I think HD games on 3.1 would certainly make a lot of sense for those who receive 3.1 OTA, which also includes many PHX DirecTV subs, who while they get HD from sat, still get almost all big 6 network HD from OTA (and some from KTTV-DT) which also allows them to see (and record) 3.1. For example I have two HD Tivos, not because I want HD from DirecTV, but because I can now record 4 OTA programs in HD at once. About 95% of my HD recording is OTA, and I am happy to pay DirecTV for the privilege of ignoring their meager HD fare in order to record HD OTA, ironic as that concept might sound.

61.1 makes sense, but only for games that would not interrupt prime time, which would piss off viewers as well as the WB.

CONUS? Spot? I have no idea if any of the spot beams include HD signals. My guess would be not.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat
I think HD games on 3.1 would certainly make a lot of sense for those who receive 3.1 OTA, which also includes many PHX DirecTV subs, who while they get HD from sat, still get almost all big 6 network HD from OTA (and some from KTTV-DT) which also allows them to see (and record) 3.1. For example I have two HD Tivos, not because I want HD from DirecTV, but because I can now record 4 OTA programs in HD at once. About 95% of my HD recording is OTA, and I am happy to pay DirecTV for the privilege of ignoring their meager HD fare in order to record HD OTA, ironic as that concept might sound.

61.1 makes sense, but only for games that would not interrupt prime time, which would piss off viewers as well as the WB.
I much prefer recording HD on my PC, where it can be converted to other formats depending on what I want to do with it (high-resolution XviD for small sizes and high quality, or DVDR for portability, or full-res DVD backups for shows worth keeping in HD quality). I realize that this task is beyond most people, but it's nice to have options for unlimited storage, which just doesn't happen with an HDTivo or an SA8300HD.

61.1 would make plenty of sense during the summer rerun season, especially for weekend games since there isn't any HD network programming on WB on the weekends anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen, a significant portion (1/2-2/3 maybe?) of the games on 3 are weekend games.

This all assumes that people actually want to watch the D-Backs lose in HD, of course. I'm much more interested in seeing the Coyotes in HD (shocker, I know).

coyoteaz

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
....

This all assumes that people actually want to watch the D-Backs lose in HD, of course. I'm much more interested in seeing the Coyotes in HD (shocker, I know).
Since almost everyone here is an immigrant, it's not about seeing the Dbacks lose, it's about seeing their original hometown team win!

Mac The Knife

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Newbie OTA Antenna Query: I live about 15 miles east of South Mt. - Having no luck with an indoor antenna, I put a $25 Radio Shack in the attic. HD reception is great except for Channel 15 and 12 which seem to come and go. Cannot get Cardinals game on 15 but can always get J.Leno - fantastic. Do these stations transmit at different powers at different times of day? My antenna appears to be aimed south, not west to S. Mt. - Aren't all UHF transmitters on the S. MT?? Thanks! Great learners' forum BTW.

tomreid

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomreid
Newbie OTA Antenna Query: I live about 15 miles east of South Mt. - Having no luck with an indoor antenna, I put a $25 Radio Shack in the attic. HD reception is great except for Channel 15 and 12 which seem to come and go. Cannot get Cardinals game on 15 but can always get J.Leno - fantastic. Do these stations transmit at different powers at different times of day? My antenna appears to be aimed south, not west to S. Mt. - Aren't all UHF transmitters on the S. MT?? Thanks! Great learners' forum BTW.
Is the antenna a settop antenna? Have you tried using it outside of the attic?

AFH

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomreid
Do these stations transmit at different powers at different times of day?
I don't believe so unless they are doing some maintenance or having difficulties.
Quote:
My antenna appears to be aimed south, not west to S. Mt. - Aren't all UHF transmitters on the S. MT?
Yes, they are all in the same relative location. If your antenna is pointing south, it looks like you may be picking up bounced signals and may be experiencing multipath problems on some of them. I assume you have tried re-orienting your antenna due west, though AFAIK stucco, tile roofs, etc., if you have them, can adversely affect attic reception. Of course, your problems are the very reason I have stayed with cable.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomreid
...I put a $25 Radio Shack in the attic. HD reception is great except for Channel 15 and 12 which seem to come and go...

My antenna appears to be aimed south, not west to S. Mt. - Aren't all UHF transmitters on the S. MT??...
I'm confused. Since YOU installed it, why is it not pointed to S. Mt.? Is this axis where you get the best reception? If so, you are indeed picking up a significant bounce, and must be shielded from line of sight. Line of sight is imperative, as is minimizing reflected signals. All DTV stations (that we care about) are indeed coming from S. Mt. I know folks near you who also get Tuscon stations, so you may try those to fill in the blanks, but you would probably end up with a rotor or dual antennas to make that work. I would try a Channel Master 4228. Folks at TivoCommunity.com seem to have great luck with that at your distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomreid
...Do these stations transmit at different powers at different times of day?...
Not on purpose (unless requested by tower maintenance crew regulations), and not usually. Signal level is not the issue, anyway. You are close enough to have plenty of signal (assuming line of sight) using a paperclip for an antenna (still not a good idea, as that is technically an "omni" antenna). If you see a varying level of reception via the metering on a STB/ DVR or HDTV, that does not indicate signal strength, but instead what ratio of bits are being decoded properly vs. corrupted. If that is changing wildly, it means you are having interference issues, and not that the power transmitted or received is changing. For instance, I know when certain stations are transmitting at reduced power, but the indicator on my HR10s and my Sony HDTV still indicate the same "level" of reception integrity. IOW, the carrier level may drop, but in either case I am still decoding all (or enough) bits properly, so the picture remains and the indication on the meter remains the same.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

My UHF attic antenna is pointed south in order to get reception form the greatest # of channels. This direction gets me Channels 3 (usually OK), 5 (fantastic), 8 (fantastic), 10 (fantastic) and 45. However since 12 & 15 cannot hold the signal for more than 2-3 seconds, I'm guessing that I'm receiving a bounced signal (?) on the entire range of channels. Pointing west (direct to S.Mt.) gets me 8 and nothing else. I live in the typical stucco single level and now I'm wondering about the stucco chicken wire interference that someone mentioned. If I stood on my roof I doubt that I would have an absolutely clear 'line of sight' to S. Mt. antennae - but neither does some viewer living in an apartment (?). Gotta be a tree or 2 story house somewhere. I guess I need to stand on my roof! This is a terriffic place for helpful ideas! Thanks to all!

tomreid

Phoenix AZ HDTV

On the west side of town it's 12 and 45 that give me the most trouble, ususlly mostly snow with a barely discernable image, Ocassionally it will mostly clear up. I have an OTA on a mast and live in Buckeye.

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomreid
...I live in the typical stucco single level and now I'm wondering about the stucco chicken wire interference that someone mentioned. If I stood on my roof I doubt that I would have an absolutely clear 'line of sight' to S. Mt. antennae...
You might have hit on something (siding or other metallic structure directly in the attic).

In my experience line of sight is necessary. Things may have improved in 5th-gen tuner technology (and unless you have a new LG or Zenith you have 4th-gen or less), but when there was only one digital TV signal out there (1999) a cadre of engineers and I tried vainly to receive it from just 5 miles away using a $200 extremely-directional very high gain antenna on a 50-foot tower, aided by spectrum analyzers and pro SLMs into a $35,000 receiver ! This was in downtown Phoenix, a very reflective environment, and we were shielded by a 14-story building. We could never get consistent lock for more than a few minutes. We had tons of signal...it's just that most of it was coming at us from every direction except from directly from S. Mt.

The second we were able to peek around the corner of that building (which took constructing a hardline coax transport trunk to a site 2 blocks away at a cost of about 5 large and 2 years of enduring city of Phoenix permitting processes), we had perfect reception and have had ever since, even in that highly-reflective environment.

I assume there is a point where less reflectivity along with better tuners will allow reception without line of sight, but if you think about it, if you don't have LOS all you really have is reflections, meaning you must pick the single reflection (if it exists) that is significantly stronger than all the rest to make that work. Good luck to all who face that scenario.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2
On the west side of town it's 12 and 45 that give me the most trouble, ususlly mostly snow with a barely discernable image, Ocassionally it will mostly clear up. I have an OTA on a mast and live in Buckeye.
If you are experiencing snow, I am guessing that you are speaking of 12 and 45 rather than 12.1 and 45.1. (We typically discuss DT reception here, but OK. For instance when we say "3" we are usually using shorthand for "3.1", etc, so it can get a bit confusing.)

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Nope - DT only - UHF antenna located in attic with concrete tile roof, stucco walls, crowded subdivision - neighbor's fireplace chimney in LOS - 2 air handlers in attic - will attempt to climb roof sometime.

tomreid

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Thanks Dave. I have a QAM tuner and am receiving both HD and SD on almost each channel. I started to delete all the non HD channels but being new to the game I didn't know if certain times of the day I might be deleting the entire channel broadcast. Can I logically delete all except the .1 channels? Now it's a pain when flipping channels to have to flip both the HD and non-HD version. Channel 12 cleared up and now it's just 15 and 45 that are snowy (OTA is the only thing I have hooked up).

When I originally turned it on tonight I was disappointed. It wasn't any better than my analog TV. Eyes looked sharp but faces were soft and just wasn't that good of a PQ. I got to thinking when the tech changed the tuner he went back in and bumped the contrast up to 82 and turned the sharpness down to 24. Which didn't make sense. I went back in and lowered the contrast to 62 and bumped the sharpness up to 70 and now it's as sharp as you would ever want. Another problem I had was the shadows that couldn't be opened up with either contrast or brightness. After upping the sharpness the shadows opened up beautifully. Still needs some fine tuning I know but at least I'm very happy with the TV.

The tech said it wasn't the high contrast and brightnesss that burned the bulbs out it was mostly the heat, especially if it's in a contained Entertainment Center with little ventilation. He suggested an exhaust fan near the top to pull the hot air out. After 3 hrs of watching I felt all around the set and it wasn't even warm anywhere I could reach and no warm air creeping over the top. So the jury is still out on some issues for me.

Thanks, I'll be glad to get rid of the analog equivalents of the channels. I hooked up cox cable but the reception was horrible, pasty faces and totally unsharp. I pulled the cable and am totally OTA. Just checked my channels and changed to all .1 and things are fine now. (Still learning).

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Not to belabor the point, since you seem to be satisfied for now, but when you had the cable connected, did you scan for digital channels? You should have found the unecrypted QAM channels I've listed below. They should be crystal clear and would negate the need for an antenna to get them OTA. You would still need an antenna for the others (3 and 45), but this might allow you to reorient your antenna for better reception on the ones you are still having problems with.

As you can see, one of the channels you are having trouble with is 15.1 and it is available at 79.1 on cable. Channels 3 and 45 are the only digial channels not available on cable since they don't broadcast any HD yet.

It doesn't matter to me which way you go, I just wanted to make sure you understand the options. QAM is only used on cable, so right now you are only using the OTA portion of your integrated tuner. That's not to say there is anything wrong with that, but it sounds like you are still having some problems with a couple of your channels OTA.

Quote:
Local Channels available with an integrated QAM tuner and subscription to basic cable:
76-1 KSAZ-DT (Fox 10)
76-2 KASW-DT (WB 61)
79-1 KNXV-DT (ABC 15)
79-2 KPHO-DT (CBS 5)
81-1 KPNX-DT (NBC 12)
81-2 KAET-DT-1 (PBS HDTV)
81-3 KAET-DT-2 (PBS Kids until 4pm, then simulcast of the analog KAET-TV) (SD 480i)

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

You're right Dave, I do get 76.1 etc. when I hook the cable up. Since I'm getting everything I want off the Air, it's easier this way than switching back and forth from cable to air and remembering which is which. My channels have all cleared up now and pq is good. I have the cable connected to the old 36 " RCA in the bedroom and that has outstanding reception when I want to watch something besides OTA (seldom). Thanks for making it clear for a newby who can always use the helpl


Ron

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

You're welcome. Glad you got everything working to your saisfaction.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

When I autoprogrammed my 5667W, I must have deleted channel 15 HD and kept the SD one. How do I add 15.1 to the channels I currently receive? Hope I don't have to go the total autoprogamme route. Thanks

Ron

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2
When I autoprogrammed my 5667W, I must have deleted channel 15 HD and kept the SD one. How do I add 15.1 to the channels I currently receive? Hope I don't have to go the total autoprogamme route. Thanks

Ron
You may have to re-scen for the hd channels. I'm not sure how it would work your television.

AFH

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Did anyone else find their Fox West Coast HD feed turned off in the past day or two? As of last night I get the "call customer service" message. Do I have to suscribe to SD locals to get this to work now?

rsingleton

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsingleton
Did anyone else find their Fox West Coast HD feed turned off in the past day or two? As of last night I get the "call customer service" message. Do I have to suscribe to SD locals to get this to work now?
I'm still getting KTTVHD. I believe you have to subscribe to the locals to get it.

Lsollee

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsingleton
Did anyone else find their Fox West Coast HD feed turned off in the past day or two? As of last night I get the "call customer service" message. Do I have to suscribe to SD locals to get this to work now?
I still have it.

Deftones17

Phoenix AZ HDTV

How do I find out what channel to put the Sam 5667 on so the DVD playerwill play DVD'S?

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2
How do I find out what channel to put the Sam 5667 on so the DVD playerwill play DVD'S?

It should be in your instruction manual. It's hard to say without knowing how your tv works for each input.

AFH

Phoenix AZ HDTV

We can't find it in the book. Both my neighabors have sony's and they just laugh and say it's easy for them.

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

All you should have to do is switch to whichever input you connected your DVD player too.

As for your neighbors, a lot of help they are.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I have switched it to every imput that isn't greyed out, manually flipped thru all the avail channels for that input, all say no imput or poor signal. I know I'm dense but how do I find out which channel to use?

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

How do you quote the msg in the reply, I click the Options box but the checkmark won't take.

"You may have to re-scen for the hd channels. I'm not sure how it would work your television."

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It takes 33 min to autoprogram the channels which I have done 6 times now and miss something each time!! This time I lost 15 and 45 which are SAP instead of HD now//// Oh well, there is always tomorrow.

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I am looking for someone to assist me in connecting my Samsung 5667W, DVD player, and Onkyo Surround sound. They all worked on my old analog but I can't get it right on the HDTV. I will also run the DVE disk with your help. I have heard prices in excess of $200 for a full calibration but this is too pricy for me. Anyone interested in the challenge? Is here anyone in the West Valley that would be interested for a reasonable price? I am in Buckeye, one block off I10. You can reach me by e-mail. (ronjon2@cox.net)

Ron

ronjon2

Phoenix AZ HDTV

ron, I'm sending you an email and will help as much as I can.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat
But I think you're pretty accurate about embargoed channels. I know there are some higher translators that will have to go to lower channels, and I think the cutoff might be 52. Even if not, KNXV would be foolish to not opt to return to 15, which is a dream frequency for DT coverage. I'd be shocked if they stayed at 56, which is a nightmare frequency (unless you are WBBM in Chicago, who struggles with ch 3 and would kill for 56).
Here's a list of the current local digitals that are changing ATSC channel numbers on Feb 18, 2009:
KAET-DT from 29 to 8
KSAZ-DT from 31 to 10
KPNX-DT from 36 to 12
KNXV-DT from 56 to 15
KTVW-DT from 34 to 33
KPPX-DT from 52 to 51

AnthemAZ.HDTV

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ
I suspect you have expanded cable (2-99), not just basic cable (2-22).
No, I have just the basic cable 2-22.

aztony

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by aztony
I called Cox today and inquired about what would my bill be if I canceled my basic cable (23 channels) and just kept the internet. Seems that all of a sudden they are running a special and I can keep my basic cable tv for FREE. They are going to deduct the cost of the basic cable from my bill.
My friend calls it his "bleed feed". He doesn't complain about the quality, because he thinks he's stealing it.

2weeks

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2weeks
My friend calls it his "bleed feed". He doesn't complain about the quality, because he thinks he's stealing it.
I guess this just shows how service is different throughout the valley and why some have difficulties while others, like me, don't. It just amazes me at how many opportunities Cox misses to shore up their sales and customer service. I know it's probably small potatos to them, but still. One sub with internet service shouldn't get basic cable without any problem while others have to jump through hoops to get filters removed or the right ones installed. I'd blame this on using 3rd-party contractors, but I doubt that is the reason. It's probably more like poor training and little attention to detail.

As for quality, it's analog, enough said. But, the HD locals via QAM should be every bit as good as anything those of us with boxes get. Guess I'll find out if I ever get around to upgrading my bedroom 25" RCA this summer.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat
Hmm. I'm further than that and have no issues with higher channels, and my antenna is a simple folded dipole (but I did trim it to peak at 600 MHz) so I think you also may have line of sight or multipath issues. A $5 FM trap can also help. I would like to think the best antenna for this market is the CM 4228, but according to www.hdtvprimer.com, the DB8 seems to be a bit better for 56.

....
My big problem is a neighbor's tree is between me and towers. As long as there is no wind, I can get 56 with a simple loop or bowtie. But when the wind blows the dynamic fade makes 56 unstable. Or if it's calm but raining then the attenuation through the tree is enough to kill 56 (all the other channels are uneffected).

Due to the orientation of my rafters, it would have been really difficult for me to attic mount a 4228 (plus the yagi was a half the price of the 4228 ).

I have an FM trap, but it doesn't seem to make any difference in my setup.

Mac The Knife

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I just recently moved and had D*TV come out and install a new dish at the new house (monday)....I have 2 HD DVR's and one regular HD....I didn't notice a problem until last night when the wife and kid started watching American Idol and were complaining about the audio sync...I went and checked and sure enough, it was terrible 1-1.5 seconds off. I checked the other TV's and receivers and it was off on all of those as well. I starting playing a DVR Recording of 24 from monday night and it was bad on that show too....today, it seems like everything on the KSAZ station (on all tv's) is synced terrible, if I switch to the standard definition Fox channel it is fine. It is also fine on all other HD locals.

Has anyone else had this problem? I called support and they said it sounded like a network issue, but I dont see people complaining about it so I'm thinking that somehow its a problem with the installation of my new dish (although for the life of me I cant see how this could happen)

Any suggestions? I sold my OTA setup when the MPEG4 HD locals came online so I dont have any other way to test it.

Thanks in advance for help/suggestions.

-John

indy597

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by indy597
I just recently moved and had D*TV come out and install a new dish at the new house (monday)....I have 2 HD DVR's and one regular HD....I didn't notice a problem until last night when the wife and kid started watching American Idol and were complaining about the audio sync...I went and checked and sure enough, it was terrible 1-1.5 seconds off. I checked the other TV's and receivers and it was off on all of those as well. I starting playing a DVR Recording of 24 from monday night and it was bad on that show too....today, it seems like everything on the KSAZ station (on all tv's) is synced terrible, if I switch to the standard definition Fox channel it is fine. It is also fine on all other HD locals.

Has anyone else had this problem? I called support and they said it sounded like a network issue, but I dont see people complaining about it so I'm thinking that somehow its a problem with the installation of my new dish (although for the life of me I cant see how this could happen)

Any suggestions? I sold my OTA setup when the MPEG4 HD locals came online so I dont have any other way to test it.

Thanks in advance for help/suggestions.

-John
I had the exact same problem and as of this morning it was still an issue, only with Fox 10 HD. Non HD as well as all other HD channels were fine. I set up my HD DVR to record the FOXW feed as that channel has no problems (i got that channel before they offered Fox 10 locally in HD and they still let me have it). The show starts an hour later but at least the audio won't be bad. I asked my parents who have Cox HD if they had the problem as of noon today and they said no.

azcardsfan

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I watched American Idol from KSAZ via Cox cable and had no sync issues. It seems that the problem is D* and their KSAZ mpeg4 feed. Are there any other D* customers that get their locals via mpeg4 that have the same problem besides indy597 and azcardsfan?

Donald

Donald V

Phoenix AZ HDTV

TomCat,

I am getting the green grid problem on KSAZ via Cox cable again. I just watched 4 episodes of 24 and I noticed the problem on all of them...especially during dark scenes. I haven't watched the 2 hour season finale from Monday yet. I also noticed it on episodes of house as well. Is this from the network? I don't seen anyone else complaining about it...

Donald

Donald V

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald V
TomCat,

I am getting the green grid problem on KSAZ via Cox cable again. I just watched 4 episodes of 24 and I noticed the problem on all of them...especially during dark scenes. I haven't watched the 2 hour season finale from Monday yet. I also noticed it on episodes of house as well. Is this from the network? I don't seen anyone else complaining about it...

Donald
What is the green grid problem? I can look for it to see if it's an issue.

Dead.Horse

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by indy597
...I didn't notice a problem until last night when the wife and kid started watching American Idol and were complaining about the audio sync...I went and checked and sure enough, it was terrible 1-1.5 seconds off. I checked the other TV's and receivers and it was off on all of those as well. I starting playing a DVR Recording of 24 from monday night and it was bad on that show too....today, it seems like everything on the KSAZ station (on all tv's) is synced terrible, if I switch to the standard definition Fox channel it is fine. It is also fine on all other HD locals.

Has anyone else had this problem? I called support and they said it sounded like a network issue, but I dont see people complaining about it so I'm thinking that somehow its a problem with the installation of my new dish...

-John
John, I think I can answer all of these questions definitively. KSAZ is in the process of upgrading its SD to HD upconversion and encoding. The idea is to have a newer system which has better PQ and move the old system into a backup role, which is all part of KSAZ's good intentions to bringing viewers better quality and reliability. The good news is that now, instead of having the oldest system with the worst PQ in town for upconversion (they were the first to go on air with DT locally, you might remember) that they would now be able to upconvert with quality at the same level as channel 3 and 33, who until this week had far and away the best-looking upconversion available in this market.

The testing of the automatic failover this week involved switching back and forth numerous times from one path to the other. Unfortunately, that can be very destructive to reception, and not just for that instant in time. Some Cox DVRs had to be totally power-cycled before they could find 710 again. Some TVs (whose initials are Samsung) lost track of 10-1 altogether, but could find 31-1 (the physical channel) and needed a rescan. It also cause issues with KSAZ's transmitter.

But the worst thing was that whatever receivers both DISH and DTV are using to receive 10-1 locally went out of sync, video to audio, and stayed that way. Engineers from KSAZ quickly contacted both DBS vendors regarding the problem and asked them to reset their receivers, but that turns out to be a longer pipeline than one might imagine, and there is no telling whether these resets are even done. So MPEG4 customers from DBS vendors had this issue much longer than anyone would have liked. OTA and Cox viewers were unaffected (other than the issues stated above). Hopefully the wheels have turned sufficiently enough for all problems to be resolved.

The bad news is that this could happen again should there be a failover from the new system to the old system (which might have a lip-sync issue, but is preferable to having no signal at all for that type of failure). If so, my advice is then to verify by resetting your local receiver, and then contacting both KSAZ and your DBS vendor. Contact numbers are at the head of this forum thread. KSAZ, at the very least, is highly motivated to make sure any problem is promptly fixed. Unfortunately, they might not be in a position to promptly shepherd technical response at DTV or DISH, so please contact them as well.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by azcardsfan
I had the exact same problem and as of this morning it was still an issue, only with Fox 10 HD. Non HD as well as all other HD channels were fine. I set up my HD DVR to record the FOXW feed as that channel has no problems (i got that channel before they offered Fox 10 locally in HD and they still let me have it). The show starts an hour later but at least the audio won't be bad. I asked my parents who have Cox HD if they had the problem as of noon today and they said no.
Ok stupid question I know, but just curious, did you guys try changing the channel and then go back to the HD channel? I had that issue on channel 3 HD the other day and changing the channel and then back again helped.

Also, from what I've read on the internet, I think you can get Fox LA because Fox 10 here is owned and operated by Fox. I could be wrong though.

theratpatrol

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald V
TomCat,

I am getting the green grid problem on KSAZ via Cox cable again. I just watched 4 episodes of 24 and I noticed the problem on all of them...especially during dark scenes. I haven't watched the 2 hour season finale from Monday yet. I also noticed it on episodes of house as well. Is this from the network? I don't seen anyone else complaining about it...

Donald
Is this a known issue? I can only verify that at all of the various HD reception and DVR locations I have been monitoring much closer than I would even like to this week reveal no such problem.

Is it just this channel, and is it just on one particular set? The best guess I could make would be that it is inherent to your set, with such limited info. Please, anyone who sees this, post back.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat
Is this a known issue? I can only verify that at all of the various HD reception and DVR locations I have been monitoring much closer than I would even like to this week reveal no such problem.

Is it just this channel, and is it just on one particular set? The best guess I could make would be that it is inherent to your set, with such limited info. Please, anyone who sees this, post back.
I'll grab some screenshots from my DVR in the next couple of days...maybe it is only my set...but i don't see it on any other network.

Donald

Donald V

Phoenix AZ HDTV

For the record, I subscribe to Dish Network and the HD Feed for American Idol was in sync both last night and tonight. Congratulations to Jordin

Shink

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Most of the first segment of Idol was badly out of sync tonight (Gwen Stefani's lipsyncing was even worse than normal) and there were also a number of glitches, even though it demuxed cleanly.

The green block/green grid problem on Fox HD programming has been reported by various people in various markets in the programming forum, but since threads seem to rotate out rather quickly there I can't find them with a search. I haven't seen any complaints recently, but there were some maybe a month or so ago.

Nice to hear that KSAZ is upgrading their local chain. Might this be part of the upgrade required to do the news in HD? Will it clear up some of the vertical banding in syndicated programming?

coyoteaz

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat
Is this a known issue? I can only verify that at all of the various HD reception and DVR locations I have been monitoring much closer than I would even like to this week reveal no such problem.

Is it just this channel, and is it just on one particular set? The best guess I could make would be that it is inherent to your set, with such limited info. Please, anyone who sees this, post back.
I've seen the grid as well in the past month. I assumed it was my HDMI cable, as I recently switched from component and didn't remember it happening before. It only happens during "24", but that is the only show I watch on channel 10. Now I'm curious... I also have a white line that occasionally shows up since I switched to HDMI. I'll have to make a note to see if it's on any certain channel.

Infocus SP7200/SA8300HD

2weeks

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
...Nice to hear that KSAZ is upgrading their local chain. Might this be part of the upgrade required to do the news in HD? Will it clear up some of the vertical banding in syndicated programming?
The previously-mentioned upgrade is specific to all upconverted SD programming, and will not impact HD programming at all. It does show a tendency for KSAZ to be serious about bringing its viewers the best quality and reliability possible, though, so I consider that to be a positive indicator regarding any other technical upgrades in the future.

The vertical banding/ringing seems to be specific to one or two outside SD syndication vendors, but my understanding is it is definitely not acceptable to the KSAZ engineering staff and is definitely on their radar to see resolved. It also will not be affected by that particular project (other than that the new upconversion softens that blow a little bit, translating to it being less noticeable), but then there are a lot of other projects in the pipeline.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

I am expecting my 32HL67 Toshiba TV to be delivered today and have digital cable thru Qwest. I will hook up the TV first to see what I get, but my tv is at the far end of my house compared to the towers on south mountain. Will an indoor OTA be able to pick up the signal? Anyone got any inputs for which antenna to buy?

lost in yonkers

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by lost in yonkers
I am expecting my 32HL67 Toshiba TV to be delivered today and have digital cable thru Qwest. I will hook up the TV first to see what I get, but my tv is at the far end of my house compared to the towers on south mountain. Will an indoor OTA be able to pick up the signal? Anyone got any inputs for which antenna to buy?
Since you live so close to the towers I think you should be fine with an indoor antenna.

theratpatrol

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by lost in yonkers
Anyone got any inputs for which antenna to buy?
Past wisdom has been to get a Zenith Silver Sensor (Sears maybe). If that doesn't do the job, then you are probably out of luck using an indoor antenna. I could be wrong, but I believe the only downside is that all locals currently broadcast their digital signals on UHF, but some will return to VHF after Feb 2009 when they turn off the analog signal. I'm not sure just what this really means to folks with UHF-only antennas and I don't know about the SS.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

The Silver Sensor is basically unusable for VHF. TomCat and others have frequently recommended the ChannelMaster CM4228 in the past, and while it is designed and sold as a UHF antenna, it has some capability to receive high VHF channels because of the screen. A better option is to combine a UHF-only antenna with rabbit ears or some other VHF antenna using a combiner such as the ChannelMaster 0549 or the AntennasDirect EU385CF.

One final thing to consider is that Ahwatukee is so close to the towers that the signal might go right over your house and not give you any reception at all indoors, so a carefully-positioned outdoor antenna might be a requirement.

coyoteaz

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Just make sure you can return whatever you buy in case you have to try something else or settle for a Qwest box.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
The Silver Sensor is basically unusable for VHF. TomCat and others have frequently recommended the ChannelMaster CM4228 in the past, and while it is designed and sold as a UHF antenna, it has some capability to receive high VHF channels because of the screen...
There is a lot of info on the 4228 at www.hdtvprimer.com, including how to easily bond the screen halves together to allow it to also get ch 7-13. The only channels locally that will return to VHF are 8 and 10 (also 12--thanks coyoteaz), both of which can be received quite easily on the 4228, even in areas with high multipath reflectivity. We are downtown shooting virtually between two skyscrapers, and never have had a blink on any ATSC channels. Analog 8 and 10 (and 12) also look very good. You can't go wrong for $50.

In Awahtukee you might actually need an attenuator (especially if you are using a Tivo HR10-250) which becomes even more likely with a high-gain antenna. I think I would generally recommend the 4224 (make that the 4221 -- thanks again, coyoteaz) for that location (smaller, cheaper, less gain and directionality), but I'm not sure it will work for 8 and 10 (and 12) after 2009. It might be better to just get the 4228 and pad the output if necessary. But try a SS first.

TomCat

Phoenix AZ HDTV

12 is also going back to VHF. The CM4221 is the 4-bay version of the CM4228, but most report that it is basically useless for VHF.

coyoteaz

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Let's not lose sight of the OP's expressed desire for an indoor antenna or at least a recommendation for one.

Also, anything wrong with this post-Feb 2009 list:

All Phoenix stations have made their final DTV elections, here is the new lineup:

Code:
 8  KAET  PBS
10  KSAZ  Fox
12  KPNX  NBC
15  KNXV  ABC
17  KPHO  CBS
20  KPAZ  TBN
24  KTVK  Independent
26  KUTP  MN
33  KTVW  Univision
39  KDTP  Daystar
49  KASW  CW
51  KPPX  ion

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by xnifex
ok i have a question: i have the panasonic th-50px60u and occasionally some channels that i get OTA just don't work. about a month ago fox didn't work and since yesterday abc doesn't work and neither does my45. it does work after i do a rescan for all the channels again but that gets annoying. any ideas?
can anybody help?

xnifex

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Depending on where you live in the Valley, you could have intermittent reception problems (multipath, etc.) causing your tuner to lose the channel. A more useful location in your profile would certainly help, as would identifying the antenna you are using. Phoenix is rather large and reception is different all over. Some folks in Awautukee, for example, have more problems than others because they can actually be too close to the towers on South Mt and the signal overshoots them. Others have no problems at all with a cheap indoor antenna, etc.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ
Let's not lose sight of the OP's expressed desire for an indoor antenna or at least a recommendation for one.

Also, anything wrong with this post-Feb 2009 list:

All Phoenix stations have made their final DTV elections, here is the new lineup:

Code:
 8  KAET  PBS
10  KSAZ  Fox
12  KPNX  NBC
15  KNXV  ABC
17  KPHO  CBS
20  KPAZ  TBN
24  KTVK  Independent
26  KUTP  MN
33  KTVW  Univision
39  KDTP  Daystar
49  KASW  CW
51  KPPX  ion
Dave, these will be their digital channels, but will these also be their HD channels as well?

Thanks

theratpatrol

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by theratpatrol
Dave, these will be their digital channels, but will these also be their HD channels as well?
One and the same. AFAIK, no one in Phoenix is planning to broadcast separate channels, though I know of at least one place that has 2 PBS channels where I believe they use one for digital/HD and one for the SD sub-channels that we multicast here, but don't quote me.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpcgeek
My $225 a month Cox bill would beg to differ that I am not paying for those QAM channels.
Wow, how are you able to get your bill that high? Premium channels? PPV? Phone?

I have Digital + HD and Internet service, and I still pay "only" around $110 per month.

Dead.Horse

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpcgeek
My $225 a month Cox bill would beg to differ that I am not paying for those QAM channels.
You can differ all you want, but how much you/I pay for monthly service has no bearing on the fact that they don't offer unencrypted QAM as a service. It's a by-product of their system that those with internet service (and minimal cable service, etc.) and QAM tuners are able to take advantage of. At some point they may even figure out how to offer internet service without having to include basic cable. There are still plenty of people who don't even know that basic cable is currently included with internet service.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by theratpatrol
Yeah sorry to rant, just a little upset. I guess I'll be ok once I get my OTAA adjusted.

Well actually, if thats the case, then why are we still getting Fox HD on 76-1 and CW HD on 76-2?
I didin't mean to jump all over you (or kingpcgeek for that matter), but it gets a bit frustrating when folks complain about something that is not offered as a service and is not being (specifically) paid for. Those of us who pay for the channels and use leased tuners are not affected at all as they realign things. If that were not the case, then I'd be complaining because they would be messing up the service I do pay for.

As for 76.1/76.2, I suspect those will be realigned sooner or later too.

I also suspect that at some point they may figure out how to offer internet service without including basic cable and the unencrypted channels (though how many that would affect is unknown and may not even be a concern to therm). Enjoy it while you can, but they have no responsibility that I know of to provide support or maintain the current capability. AFAIK it's got something to do with the requirement that basic/expanded cable be offered without requiring a set-top box. How all that plays out in the future once everything is digital is anyone's guess.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Thanks to coyoteaz, the first post has been updated. I suspect 76 will become 107 soon and then the realignment will probably be done. If my contact weren't so overwhelmed with all that is going on behind the scenes at Cox at the moment, I'd asked him how all this helps them offer more HD/services, but I'd rather he concentrate on OCAP, etc.

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead.Horse
Wow, how are you able to get your bill that high? Premium channels? PPV? Phone?

I have Digital + HD and Internet service, and I still pay "only" around $110 per month.
I did exaggerate a bit. Its actually $223.26 a month.
  • 2 HD DVR's (that's why I don't feel so bad about using those "byproduct" QAM channels on my patio TV)
  • 1 Digital Receiver
  • All of the Premiums (I keep thinking about dumping Showtime/TMC and then they have something like Bulls**t and Dexter on and I keep it around)
  • Premium HSI
  • Telephone

kingpcgeek

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ
I didin't mean to jump all over you (or kingpcgeek for that matter), but it gets a bit frustrating when folks complain about something that is not offered as a service and is not being (specifically) paid for.
I wasn't complaining.

kingpcgeek

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpcgeek
I wasn't complaining.
I suppose that's true, but you did seem to echo the frustration of using a "free" capability and them "messing" around with it. Maybe I read more into your post than was there, sorry if I did. Believe me, when I upgrade my other TVs soon, I'll be looking for models with an integrated QAM tuner so I can take advantage of it too. I just won't "complain" when I have to do a rescan because they realigned the channels or encrypted them.

I've tried several times to get Cox to support and advertise this kind of stuff. They may lose a few customers who will downgrade their service, but I think the upside is gaining more customers because they will take advantage of an "extra" like this.

BTW, what TV do you have on the patio and how do you keep it clean with all the dust we have around here? I'd love to put a TV out there during the cooler months, but I worry about dust, etc. I suppose you just cover it?

DoubleDAZ

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ
I suppose that's true, but you did seem to echo the frustration of using a "free" capability and them "messing" around with it.
Nope I was just trying to state that I am not getting the QAM channels for free. I pay them a heck of a lot of money a month.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ
BTW, what TV do you have on the patio and how do you keep it clean with all the dust we have around here? I'd love to put a TV out there during the cooler months, but I worry about dust, etc. I suppose you just cover it?
I bought a cheap 32" LCD TV with a QAM tuner, on a articulating wall mount so I can rotate it to view it from the spa off to the right, the bar and bbq on the left and from anywhere in the main area of the patio. I bought a vinyl bbq cover, split it down the back so that it wraps around the wall mount, and then use two bungee cords to hold it in place. We are out there most nights for an hour or two. We have a kegerator right below the TV so there isn't much reason to go anywhere else. For the cooler months we have a heater, and for the warmer months I had a professional misting system put in.

kingpcgeek

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ
... but I'm not sure how ION got added. I've added Univision/Telefutura in the interest of accuracy.
Yeah that's what tricked me. You listed all the TBN and PAX channels ( only God knows when or if they'll ever have any HD programming ), so I thought you were listing all the DTV channels regardless of content.

Mac The Knife

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ
There are still plenty of people who don't even know that basic cable is currently included with internet service.
Until your post, I was one of those people. So, I can cancel my basic cable tv service, keep my internet service, and I will receive my basic cable for free?

aztony

Phoenix AZ HDTV

@DoubleDAZ:

Hey, thanks for all the information you are providing here. I have a question, though. You changed the top of this thread to include the new channel numbers, but you left the QAM frequencies the same. If the channels have changed that means the frequencies have changed too, right? I need the QAM frequencies for my HD tuner in my MythTV setup...

Is there any way you can get me the new frequencies?

Thanks a lot!

Dhalgren

Phoenix AZ HDTV

Quote:
Originally Posted by aztony
Until your post, I was one of those people. So, I can cancel my basic cable tv service, keep my internet service, and I will receive my basic cable for free?
Good luck with that. When I only had Internet from Cox they put a filter on my service entrance that prevented me from getting any cable channels...

Dhalgren

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