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Question Seattle WA OTA ( AVS Forum Local HDTV Info and Reception )
Updated: 2008-06-11 08:30:12 (3270)
Seattle WA OTA

I've been able to receive Channel 27 (28-1, 28-2, 28-3, 28-4) KBTS, the Bates Community College PBS station since Monday.
Also, I notice KCTS Channel 9 is now multicasting all PBS feeds.
Lastly, Channel 33-1 (32) and a couple of shopping channels from Bellevue must have boosted power because I can get them in Shoreline quite well. They were not receivable prior.
I checked briefly, but didn't find similar post. If redundant, it is as my signature:

Answers: Seattle WA OTA ( AVS Forum Local HDTV Info and Reception )
Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan
Anyone having a problem with the picture jumping a lot on CSI channel 7 (DTV) Thursday night 6/5/08? I've also noticed noticeably worse reception recently on 7 DTV and 5 DTV and don't know if it's the generator replacement job our apt building is undergoing (the old one they took out was on the roof), our Antenna being out of whack or something else.
I noticed several strange instances of KIRO-DT 7.1 picture jumping using a Zenith DTT900 CECB on CSI connected to a standard-def Sony Trinitron 20" bedroom TV. I was viewing in widescreen mode. KIRO 7.1 picture jumping also occurred during the CBS program Swingtown the same evening.

In recent days, I've noticed several instances where KIRO 7.1 has also exhibited significant problems with audio-video lip synchronization. Wonder what's up?

P.S. Signal strength on KIRO DT 7.1 and 7.2 has been relatively stable and solid compared with KOMO-DT and KING-DT.

seatacboy

Seattle WA OTA

KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?

seatacboy

Seattle WA OTA

OK guys, thanks for verifying the image jumping problem. Hopefully they've got it sorted out now. I think my reception problems recently are linked to the huge CAT generator install our apt building just underwent. They were doing some work up on the roof where the antenna is. It seems to be better now though.

Hi Def Fan

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy
KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?
It is highly unlikely that the signals from the TV station transmitters are fluctuating in strength.

It is more likely that you are seeing the effects of partial blockages and/or multipath interference caused by signals reflected and arriving at your receiver slightly later than the direct-path signal.

The indicators on digital TV tuners do not normally show signal strength. They typical provide "signal quality" information that can be based on a combination of signal strength, signal to noise ratio and/or received bit error rates.

Where I live, as the leaves appear on the trees in my line of sight to Seattle, I get more fluctuations in usable signal quality than in the wintertime when the leaves are gone. It can get worse when the leaves are wet.

I thought raising my antenna as high as I could would be the best way to deal with this, but my recent experiences have been that lowering my antenna nearly 20 feet yielded better signal quality across the board.

Lacking suitable test equipment, the best method is trial and error by moving the antenna location and orientation.

Budget_HT

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy
KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?
KOMO's VHF antenna is at the top of the tower. The UHF antenna used for digital is lower down. It is also on the side of the tower, which doesn't help in some directions (it is particularly poor to the west). Hopefully after the 2/2009 transition they will switch to a UHF antenna at the top, with better coverage. If it weren't for trees I could probably see the towers from my roof, but reception of KOMO was a real problem for me until DirecTV started carrying the digital signal.

rdn

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy
I noticed several strange instances of KIRO-DT 7.1 picture jumping using a Zenith DTT900 CECB on CSI connected to a standard-def Sony Trinitron 20" bedroom TV. I was viewing in widescreen mode. KIRO 7.1 picture jumping also occurred during the CBS program Swingtown the same evening.

In recent days, I've noticed several instances where KIRO 7.1 has also exhibited significant problems with audio-video lip synchronization. Wonder what's up?

P.S. Signal strength on KIRO DT 7.1 and 7.2 has been relatively stable and solid compared with KOMO-DT and KING-DT.
I saw the same "jumping" when watching my DirecTV DVR recording of Swingtown yesterday. This was recorded from DirecTV's KIRO-HD, not OTA, so it's obviously a network or local KIRO issue.

litzdog911

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkPitt
I have a friend who lives at 3111 York Rd in Everett, WA.

Does he have a chance at receiving any OTA signal? Before purchasing an antenna I wanted to post here for him.

thank you for any help!!!
DirkPitt
It's not impossible, but he's in a small valley and there's a bunch of trees in his way for about 2 miles. Location of the antenna may be fussy. Patience will help. I've done a couple north of the field with better location, and it was still hit and miss trying to find a sweet spot for all channels.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy
KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?
seatacboy
KONG is licensed for 5000kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=35396
KING is licensed for 960kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=34847
Kong is much lower in frequency, so it also goes farther. They do have different patterns, which somewhat affects reception in different directions.

They don't fluctuate in any amount that your tuner would notice. It's conditions between point A & B, your antenna and receiver.
The antenna locations on the towers do affect signal a little, but it's not as much as you would think. The bad spots because of it are pretty well known, and they're only a few. The main one is KOMO, northwest towards the Locks. A few small places on Magnolia, too, but that's about all I've found. My meter will show the pattern, it's very unique. There are gazillions of places where the signal is ugly, but it's always due to the terrain and obstacles.

The small difference in tower height between 4,5, & 7 is not really significant.
As for signal jumping and moving around on the locals on satellite, I see it it at times as well. When I channel/up to the same local on antenna, through the same receiver, it always stops. This points to the satellite portion of the local signal getting to you, not local transmitters.
The satellite problem is particularly maddening because they move the program signals around on the transponders to foil the hackers. The internal lookup table, for what's on which, keeps it all working so you never see any change. It makes tweaking the dish for a particular channel a pain, as it keeps changing. I also see minor glitches on other channels, like FSNW.

As for the locals over air, though, I have the readings and waveshape patterns written down, so when there's a real problem, I can compare for any changes. The few times there have been problems, it's very obvious. All looks normal at this time.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKurts
seatacboy
KONG is licensed for 5000kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=35396
KING is licensed for 960kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=34847
Kong is much lower in frequency, so it also goes farther. They do have different patterns, which somewhat affects reception in different directions.
For the sake of clarity, 5000 kW is for KONG's analog signal on channel 16. KONG-DT 35 is at 700 kW.

- Trip

Trip in VA

Seattle WA OTA

Indeed, the maximum Effective Radiated Power for UHF DTV stations is 1,000kW.

By the way, my new DTV reception site http//:www.DTVRULES.com is on-line as of last week. There is much more material to be posted on the site late next week after I get back from a couple radio projects east of the mountains.

Kelly From KOMO

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA
For the sake of clarity, 5000 kW is for KONG's analog signal on channel 16. KONG-DT 35 is at 700 kW.

- Trip
Here's a list for all of the local digital stations.

rdn

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKurts
They don't fluctuate in any amount that your tuner would notice. It's conditions between point A & B, your antenna and receiver.
The antenna locations on the towers do affect signal a little, but it's not as much as you would think. The bad spots because of it are pretty well known, and they're only a few. The main one is KOMO, northwest towards the Locks. A few small places on Magnolia, too, but that's about all I've found. My meter will show the pattern, it's very unique. There are gazillions of places where the signal is ugly, but it's always due to the terrain and obstacles.

The small difference in tower height between 4,5, & 7 is not really significant. As for signal jumping and moving around on the locals on satellite, I see it it at times as well. When I channel/up to the same local on antenna, through the same receiver, it always stops. This points to the satellite portion of the local signal getting to you, not local transmitters. The satellite problem is particularly maddening because they move the program signals around on the transponders to foil the hackers. The internal lookup table, for what's on which, keeps it all working so you never see any change. It makes tweaking the dish for a particular channel a pain, as it keeps changing. I also see minor glitches on other channels, like FSNW.

As for the locals over air, though, I have the readings and waveshape patterns written down, so when there's a real problem, I can compare for any changes. The few times there have been problems, it's very obvious. All looks normal at this time.
Dan
Thanks for the feedback. While I've kept analog Comcast Limited Cable Service, Comcast's PQ generally has been good but not as transparent as OTA DTV. Until I can find a good Clear QAM tuner, I also can't get the subchannels like KIRO 7.2 (RTN) and the various KCTS and KBTC subchannels.

Yesterday, while healing up from a back sprain, I was watching KIRO 7.2 RTN in my bedroom from 1:00 in the afternoon with absolutely no pixellation or noticeable dropouts, signal strength at about 75%. At about 3:40 pm, KIRO 7.2's signal strength started fluctuating around and dropping out. I missed the final plot details of The Wild, Wild West episode The Night of the Tottering Tontine! It had been rock-solid for a few days, and since yesterday afternoon it's been intermittent.

By contrast, absolutely stable picture on KING 5.1 and 5.2 (stable at a relatively so-so 65-70% signal strength on the DTT-900).

I've wondered if some individual or business in my area is making low-power wireless transmissions in the frequency range of UHF 38 (KOMO) or UHF 39 (KIRO)? Nothing shows up on an analog TV in those frequencies. I've heard some wireless Internet services, wireless routers, or even wireless mice could be using UHF frequencies. Is there any way to tell? TV Fool info for my location

P.S. At my location, KUNS, KWDK, KWPX, KHCV and KBTC are very easy to receive. On KUNS, KWPX and KBTC, I can often get 80% to 90% signal strength. Again, signal strength doesn't measure other problems like multipath reflections.

KMYQ, KCTS, and KSTW are fairly easy to receive on DTV (and received, albeit with a fair amount of snow and some ghosting, on analog). Typically 65% to 80% signal strength.

KIRO, KING, KOMO can be received in DTV but very sensitive to aerial placement. KIRO and KOMO seem to fluctuate more than KING 48. (On analog, KIRO viewable with snow and some ghosting; KOMO and KING unviewable in analog)

KONG-DT is very difficult to receive (analog 16 comes in with some snow and ghosting). Typically 30% to 40% signal strength.

seatacboy

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA
For the sake of clarity, 5000 kW is for KONG's analog signal on channel 16. KONG-DT 35 is at 700 kW.

- Trip
Trip
Well shut my mouth wide open! If I had scrolled down it was there.
It's been a while since I checked. When they first came on the air, they were the same. Then they had to dial back because they were bothering Victoria, BC. They were running on backup transmitter as an easy way to dial power back. When I spoke with their engineer, (in the days when they would call you back) he said it would be back to the same as analog when they sorted things out. Since their signal started getting much stronger over the last year or so, I assumed the original power.
In any case, thanks for the heads up.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

I've been reading much of this thread in hopes of finding out why I can't seem to get much in the way of OTA reception here in North Everett.

My system is a Radioshack U-75R (which may be the problem as people around here don't seem to keen on Radioshack antennas!) that's mounted in my attic about 17' up with about 50' of coax running to my TV (Sony 40W3000 if that matters.)

No matter which direction it's pointing, I *barely* (unwatchable) get channels 29 and 33.

I live at 16th and McDougall (zip here is 98201) and here's what TVFool says I should get:

-----



----


Help!

Thanks! This is my first post and the information contained here is awesome!

-Landon

landon1850

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy
I've wondered if some individual or business in my area is making low-power wireless transmissions in the frequency range of UHF 38 (KOMO) or UHF 39 (KIRO)? Nothing shows up on an analog TV in those frequencies. I've heard some wireless Internet services, wireless routers, or even wireless mice could be using UHF frequencies. Is there any way to tell? TV Fool info for my location
I remember we once had one of our AT&T cell sites getting knocked out of service (the radios would all seal up and park themselves) due to interference from a privately-owned faulty fiber optic repeater/amplifier located almost 20 miles away. Some component in the bad amp was spitting out spurious broadband RF noise that affected our 850MHz radios. It took our cell tech 2 weeks and the help from some Navy folks at Whidbey to DF the source of the problem.

So it might not be something that is using the same frequency or even an RF emitting device when operating normally. If so, it may be impossible to track down easily.

Spike89

Seattle WA OTA

Anyone else have signal loss today? Sometime around the middle of the day I lost both my satellite & OTA feeds. Unless my multiswitch just exploded, I'm wondering if the rain and fog had something to do with it.

I've got an HR10-250 and an R10 (I'm with DirecTV), along with a Spaun 5x8 multiswitch and CM OTA antennas.

jcricket

Seattle WA OTA

DanKurts: What great help you are giving re: OTA signals! I'll add my request...225th and SE46th in Sammamish...on the plateau. My OTA is in attic...will that impact signal like trees or hill?

DJB64

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by robglasser
Anyone watch Prison Break on channel 13 last night? If so did you see audio issues and a few video issues during the first 30 minutes or so? It was really annoying for me, audio would just cut out for about 10 seconds every 2 - 3 minutes, both during the show and during commericals. Video was usually flawless although I did see 2 instances in which the video froze briefly and then skipped again a few seconds. Once, during the robbery at the beginning I lost audio and video was running a bit fast, kind of like an old silent film. Just trying to make sure it's not my DVR, don't think it is, nothing else I've watched/recorded has expierenced issues like this. (Except the notorious KOMO issues)
It was fine on my HR10-250 DirecTV/Tivo, recorded from KCPQ-DT.

litzdog911

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJB64

.... My OTA is in attic...will that impact signal like trees or hill?
The bottom line is whether the signal into your HDTV set is above the receiver sensitivity plus a margin to ensure good reception under varying atmospheric condition. The attic will decrease the signal but it may not matter unless there were lots of metal in the attic in front of your antenna to block signal and mess them up.

The best way is to try it out. If you get reliable reception, why put the antenna above the roof unless you really need that, or you just enjoy doing it - and that would be okay too.

swwg

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJB64
DanKurts: What great help you are giving re: OTA signals! I'll add my request...225th and SE46th in Sammamish...on the plateau. My OTA is in attic...will that impact signal like trees or hill?
DJB64
You're in a good spot, terrain wise. What I can't see is how many trees are around you. If the antenna were outside, and no trees to the west, you should get everything. Being in the attic will affect the signal. How much depends on antenna, roof covering, attic construction, and more. Being in the attic can impact signal just as much as hills or trees. Again, it all varies. If you're having problems, try it outside, temporarily, and see how much it improves, or doesn't. Then you'll have a good idea of where the problem lies.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by litzdog911
It was fine on my HR10-250 DirecTV/Tivo, recorded from KCPQ-DT.
Did you record it Thursday night when they reshowed it, or when it originally ran on Monday night? I was watching/recording the Thursday night viewing.

robglasser

Seattle WA OTA

I left the good ol' SIRT-451 ATSC-only tuner just staring in standby for a couple of weeks. Supposedly it scans for new digital signals when not being used for viewing to keep its memory of available channels up to date. Today I fired it up and channel surfed... What the heck!!?

The tuner had saved KATU, KOIN and KCKA (Portland, OR and Centralia, WA) in channel memory sometime during my absence and stopped on each one in turn. Naturally, I couldn't view them today. (Heck, I can't tune KCPQ worth a darn from N. Seattle so I was floored to see evidence of reception from 150 miles away.)

Have you heard of this sort of 'skip' affecting UHF channels? Anyone else experience something similar?

jatman

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jatman
I left the good ol' SIRT-451 ATSC-only tuner just staring in standby for a couple of weeks. Supposedly it scans for new digital signals when not being used for viewing to keep its memory of available channels up to date. Today I fired it up and channel surfed... What the heck!!?

The tuner had saved KATU, KOIN and KCKA (Portland, OR and Centralia, WA) in channel memory sometime during my absence and stopped on each one in turn. Naturally, I couldn't view them today. (Heck, I can't tune KCPQ worth a darn from N. Seattle so I was floored to see evidence of reception from 150 miles away.)

Have you heard of this sort of 'skip' affecting UHF channels? Anyone else experience something similar?
jatman
I haven't heard of a tuner automatically scanning for new channels, but could be.
However, I don't think that's what happened. Skip is possible, of course, but I bet somehow it updated it's memory from one of your available local stations you normally get. Satellites do this, from time to time, when they send updates. Depends on the model, and whether you have the local zip code programmed in or not. The off air local scan will then add channels, from all around Puget Sound, to the list, even though we can't get them. When you try to tune them, no one home.
I know that ch9 has a time hack that updates the clocks on some VCR's, so maybe it's included in their signal, and your tuner picks out the other info, as well.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Well, I setup my new 50" Panny over the weekend. On the Plateau in Sammamish, I get great reception with my 10 year old Radio Shack antennae in the attic. No special HD antennae (if there is such a thing) just a plan old VHF/UHF antennae...tho it is one of the bigger ones. In addition to the normal 4,5,7,9,11,16, and 22, I get DT versions (4.1, 5.1, 5.2 (weather), 7.1, and a couple versions of channel 9 (9.1, 9.2, and 9.5 I think). Reception is all 80% plus so I am happy.

My question is: Channel 9.5 is labeled HD, where 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 just say DT. Are there other channels (e.g. 4.5 or 5.5 etc) that I am not getting that are "HD-specific" like 9.5 appears to be? Or, do I simply tune in to, say 7.1 to get whatever signal, HD or SD, that is being broadcast at the moment?

Also, regarding picture settings, anyone have recommendations on brightness, color, tint, etc that will help me zero in on the best picture? What about the Noise Reduction options, should I leave them off since I have good OTA signals?

Thanks, everybody, for all your help over the past couple weeks!

DJB64

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJB64
Also, regarding picture settings, anyone have recommendations on brightness, color, tint, etc that will help me zero in on the best picture?
I used the Avia 'Guide to Home Theater' to callibrate my HDTV Toshiba. Big improvement in image quality.

YMMV.

tg3

Seattle WA OTA

Hey, what's up with the 1080i OTA broadcasts? Last night, according to my Panny I was receiving 1080i signal on channels 5 and 7 (I think) but they were in 4:3 aspect and not widescreen. As usual, the aspect button on my remote would not change the aspect on the digital signal. Do I have a setting wrong, or is a HD signal being transmitted in 4:3 format (that seems weird to me)?

DJB64

Seattle WA OTA

Hi everyone!

I just moved into a condo building downtown - The Vine Building on the corner of Western & Vine in Belltown. I live on the 4th floor of the building and have a window facing East. There are other buildings around, some shorter, some taller.

I have the HDTV Box, TV and all the gear and now it looks like I need to grab an indoor antenna and signal booster. Could any offer some suggestions, comments etc.?

Thank you!

zurgdawg

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jatman
I left the good ol' SIRT-451 ATSC-only tuner just staring in standby for a couple of weeks. Supposedly it scans for new digital signals when not being used for viewing to keep its memory of available channels up to date. Today I fired it up and channel surfed... What the heck!!?

The tuner had saved KATU, KOIN and KCKA (Portland, OR and Centralia, WA) in channel memory sometime during my absence and stopped on each one in turn. Naturally, I couldn't view them today.
I double checked the Samsung manual: it does scan the OTA channels when in standby to discover 'new' channels automagically.

I have an explanation for the KCKA appearance: Seems that KBTC screws up now and again and sends the KCKA PSIP information instead of the KBTC data on the KBTC signal. (KCKA is KBTC's second PBS channel down in Centralia.) Last night I could watch 'KCKA' (all four program channels) but KBTC was nowhere to be found.

I'm still looking for a good explanation for the KATU and KOIN channels saved in memory! Doesn't make sense for any of the Seattle locals to have transmitted Portland area PSIP streams a la KBTC/KCKA.

jatman

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJB64
...

My question is: Channel 9.5 is labeled HD, where 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 just say DT. Are there other channels (e.g. 4.5 or 5.5 etc) that I am not getting that are "HD-specific" like 9.5 appears to be? Or, do I simply tune in to, say 7.1 to get whatever signal, HD or SD, that is being broadcast at the moment?

...
For all of our locals, except KCTS-DT, the ".1" channel is the HDTV channel. They pretty much broacast in HiDef all of the time, although except for prime time shows and some local news, most of the content is upconverted from the regular 4:3 standard definition broadcast.

The exception is Channel 9, which only broadcasts HDTV at certain hours on 9.5. When 9.5 is not on the air, they have two additional standard definition subchannels, 9.2 and 9.3, for kids/educational programs. 9.1 is always the equivalent of the regular analog Channel 9 broadcast.

You've probably discovered that a few of our locals also broadcast additional programs on subchannels. For example, 5.2 is local weather and 7.2 is airport traffic video.

litzdog911

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by zurgdawg
Hi everyone!

I just moved into a condo building downtown - The Vine Building on the corner of Western & Vine in Belltown. I live on the 4th floor of the building and have a window facing East. There are other buildings around, some shorter, some taller.

I have the HDTV Box, TV and all the gear and now it looks like I need to grab an indoor antenna and signal booster. Could any offer some suggestions, comments etc.?

Thank you!
zurgdawg
Use a small indoor antenna, like the silver sensor or small bow tie from rat shack. NO AMPLIFIER! If you can, get it near the window. If you have a balcony that can see north, you might have a shot at at QA hill. Where you place it and aiming will be pretty sensitive.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jatman
I double checked the Samsung manual: it does scan the OTA channels when in standby to discover 'new' channels automagically.

I have an explanation for the KCKA appearance: Seems that KBTC screws up now and again and sends the KCKA PSIP information instead of the KBTC data on the KBTC signal. (KCKA is KBTC's second PBS channel down in Centralia.) Last night I could watch 'KCKA' (all four program channels) but KBTC was nowhere to be found.

I'm still looking for a good explanation for the KATU and KOIN channels saved in memory! Doesn't make sense for any of the Seattle locals to have transmitted Portland area PSIP streams a la KBTC/KCKA.
jatman
Well, about the only thing left is atmospheric skip. Definitely can be done. In my military days, our comm site in Japan used to bounce signals off the troposphere all around the world, Greenland, Germany. Problem is TV transmitters don't send the signal upwards, intentionally, but when conditions are right.... Obviously, counting on it all the time is something else.
Be interesting if anyone else with the 451 receiver runs into similar results.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJB64
Well, I setup my new 50" Panny over the weekend. On the Plateau in Sammamish, I get great reception with my 10 year old Radio Shack antennae in the attic. No special HD antennae (if there is such a thing) just a plan old VHF/UHF antennae...tho it is one of the bigger ones. In addition to the normal 4,5,7,9,11,16, and 22, I get DT versions (4.1, 5.1, 5.2 (weather), 7.1, and a couple versions of channel 9 (9.1, 9.2, and 9.5 I think). Reception is all 80% plus so I am happy.

My question is: Channel 9.5 is labeled HD, where 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 just say DT. Are there other channels (e.g. 4.5 or 5.5 etc) that I am not getting that are "HD-specific" like 9.5 appears to be? Or, do I simply tune in to, say 7.1 to get whatever signal, HD or SD, that is being broadcast at the moment?

Also, regarding picture settings, anyone have recommendations on brightness, color, tint, etc that will help me zero in on the best picture? What about the Noise Reduction options, should I leave them off since I have good OTA signals?

Thanks, everybody, for all your help over the past couple weeks!
DJB64
The AVIA DVD is a great setup tool. While you have it looking at a still image (preferably a face), play with the settings to see how they interact. Then watch the local newscast at 5PM. When they're in the studio, that picture's going to be about as good as it gets. Again, play with the settings to see what they do. Then when you watch an old movie, or show that's looks off, you'll know which adjustments to make. Setting the TV to a ref disc is fine. But because shows vary so much, you can't really leave it one position. Sadly, most people never touch the adjustments.
I'm old school, but have the techs eye, from replacing picture tubes eons ago and setting initial adjuments. In those days, there was only the basics on the remote, ON/OFF and 3 steps of volume. Sometimes channel change. It used to drive me nuts watching pictures that needed adjustments. Having to keep getting up and going over to tweak color or tint got old, fast. Now, we can not only adjust the basics, but even the greyscale, and a host of other things. Don't be afraid to use them. Take a little time to get used to them and read the manual for explanations of what they all do. Not all sets are the same, or have the same range of adjustments, so explore their limits.

There are two things that the manuals don't really explain that I can offer some clarification and suggestions on.
First the Temperature adjustments. Some sets call them Cool, Med, Warm, NTSC, etc. To fully understand how they affect color, turn the color all the way down to off. Now that you have a "black and white" picture, try the different settings. Cool will add more blue, warm more green. Most sets come out of the box set cool, or bluish. This tends to make whites look whiter, and the overall brightness look better. It also makes grass look more blue, and red look more purple. I suggest trying the warm or NTSC setting for a while. See if colors look better, more natural. When you turn the color back up, and play with these settings, notice the reds and greens and how they're affected.
Second, if your set has a Picture adjustment, and no Contrast adjustment, then you need to understand how it really works. Picture is actually Contrast, Color and Brightness working all at the same time. It's original purpose was to allow the raising or lowering of all three together, so they would all stay in balance. Of course, they never work in a linear fashion, because displays themselves aren't linear. So, how to adjust. If your image looks too dark, like you have too much contrast, then turn the Picture back a few notches, and the Brightness up a few. Then readjust color if needed. If the image looks pale and washed out, up with Picture, down with Brightness,, and maybe Color. Obviously, you don't want to crank them up too high, as the images will start to distort. The AVIA disc will show you that, when you go through the setups. After a while, you'll be able to tell when you can make an improvement, and when the actual content is just lousy, and there's not going to be much you can do.
Last, you'll find that when watching HD, the colors will tend to be more intense, and sometimes the contrast, so save one setting for HD and another for regular defintion content. That way you won't have to do so much tweaking.
Enjoy!
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Use a small indoor antenna, like the silver sensor or small bow tie from rat shack. NO AMPLIFIER!
Thanks for the reply Dan! Just out of curiosity, why do you say not to use an amplifier?

Thanks!

zurgdawg

Seattle WA OTA

I was watching football for a while on KOMO tonight and got a period of picture freezing on and off for 30-60 seconds during the middle of the 2nd quarter. I know that KOMO had this issue in the past, but I thought it was behind them. Was anyone else seeing this?

drewba

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewba
I was watching football for a while on KOMO tonight and got a period of picture freezing on and off for 30-60 seconds during the middle of the 2nd quarter. I know that KOMO had this issue in the past, but I thought it was behind them. Was anyone else seeing this?
I'm seeing similar freezes, and audio dropouts too, but I'm watching Comcast 82.5 QAM, not OTA.

stevelee

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by zurgdawg
Thanks for the reply Dan! Just out of curiosity, why do you say not to use an amplifier?

Thanks!
zurgdawg
You're within spitting distance of almost everything except ch13, which, by the way, comes from the west, so it most likely will not come in. Signals are Vvery strong and bouncing around you like mad. Stick your head out the window when an ambulance siren wails, and try to pick out what direction he's coming from. With all those buildings around you, the echo is everywhere. Same thing with reception. If you use an amplifier, ALL those bounced signals, and ALL the RF noise from downtown, will increase, along with the signal. The result will make it very hard for the tuner to pick out the real signal. A small antenna there will actually produce quite a bit of signal already, so you don't need to worry about it being weak. It won't be so much that you'll overload the receiver, though. If it's going to work, the less noise, the better.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Hi. I have been reading this thread trying to figure out what I need. I just purchased an EDTV from Samsung. I live in ballard and face south on the third floor of a building, so I can see all of the towers. I have a cheap little antenna and it works great for almost all the channels. The only problem is I cannot get 4.2 or any of the King digital channels (I do get Kong though?) How do I find the signal or do I need a different antenna?? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. This probably belongs in a different forum, but I might as well ask, if I have a Replay TV hooked up to standard comcast cable, will my signal improve at all by hooking the replay using composite video or is standard connection using a cable cord just as good since it is not HD?

Thanks in advance --

edtvnovice

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by edtvnovice
Hi. I have been reading this thread trying to figure out what I need. I just purchased an EDTV from Samsung. I live in ballard and face south on the third floor of a building, so I can see all of the towers. I have a cheap little antenna and it works great for almost all the channels. The only problem is I cannot get 4.2 or any of the King digital channels (I do get Kong though?) How do I find the signal or do I need a different antenna?? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. This probably belongs in a different forum, but I might as well ask, if I have a Replay TV hooked up to standard comcast cable, will my signal improve at all by hooking the replay using composite video or is standard connection using a cable cord just as good since it is not HD?

Thanks in advance --
edtvnovice
Always use a video/audio connection, if possible. When you use the antenna cable connection (setting the TV on ch3 to view it), the signal is converted from video to an RF ch3, then the TV tunes the ch3 back into video for viewing. Each conversion process deteriorates the signal somewhat. Using video inputs bypasses the process. Composite video is better (yellow jack), S-Video better yet, component video better again, and usually, digital video the best.
As far as reception goes, 4.2 is a sub channel of 4. They don't always have something there to view. If you get 4.1, you're getting all the signal. Ch5 problem could be related to where the antenna is placed and/or the type it is. If posssible, you need to be able to see the towers. Assuming this is an indoor antenna, move it nearer to the window. There's also a small chance you have too much signal. Run over to RatShack on Market and pickup an adjustable attenuator (you can return it if not needed). Set it for max and then see if the other channels you normally get are still there. If yes, then signal is strong. See how ch5 comes in. If it's still not there, then try adjusting the attenuator. If still not there, then you will need to try a different location. If all fails, then let us know what flavor of antenna you have. How does ch9, 11, 22 come in?
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Hello,

Has anyone else notice that the Miami and Denver game looks soft on kiro? The Seahawks on fox is not the best either.
js

johnnysparks

Seattle WA OTA

I noticed the KOMO drop outs too, but not bad considering MNF last season...

DD5.1 is still down on Kiro-DT...

The Fox game is really awful looking...

The CBS game looks sharp, but suffers from considerable aliasing during motion.

I hate all the icons everywhere.

ABC has by far the best NFL HD IMO with their refined 720p look.

DrCrawn

Seattle WA OTA

Hi everyone,

I've enjoyed reading as many posts as possible on HDTV OTA setup on this forum.

I really need help determining the best antenna type for my area. I live in Lynnwood, WA 98036 near the intersection of 204th Str. SW and 21st Pl. W.

I've already checked the CEA website and apparently most if not all the stations I'm interested in are UHF channels. The tricky part for my area is that the antenna type indicated for my location is RED. I only live 13 miles from most of the transmitters but apparently there are some hills in between and other types of interferences (trees etc) and maybe the transmitters aren't very strong? My elevation is about 340-360 feet.....but it looks like there is a hilly area in between over 400 feet elevation.

Based on CEA recommendations I need a large Yagi type UHF unidirectional antenna.....but I wonder if a large multidirectional UHF antenna (like a DB4) might work and give me more stations without having to rotate the antenna. The majority of the stations are within 10 degrees of eachother from my location.

I guess with antenna choices it's almost like trial and error to figure out what will work........but I'm hoping someone else that lives in my area might already know what works best.

Thanks for any suggestions
David

Tailwalk

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnysparks
Hello,

Has anyone else notice that the Miami and Denver game looks soft on kiro? The Seahawks on fox is not the best either.
js
My set is 1080 native so CBS games generally look the best. Miami/Denver did not look too bad to me. Seahawks game looked worse, as though they were compressing the data stream too much. The resolution was poor and too contrasty like it went through some "sharpening" filter in a digital camera. It ends up not looking realistic at all, just very clean digital. I would say it is a tossup between ABC MNF and CBS on my set. CBS seems to have more detail. The CBS HD college games last year were generally VERY good.

I am now spoiled however, having just returned from vacation where we saw the IMAX Coral Reef movie - talk about WOW factor (both visually and aurally). I wanted to see it again and again. I now want a 10-foot quad-def screen in my living room. Of course there won't be any quad-def material for many years even if they do agree on all the format BS. Imagine HD times 4 on a big screen. We can dream about it I guess...

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Per the schedule from HDSportsGuide.com, the game was NOT broadcast in HD. It sure didn't look like HD when compared to the other Fox games.

I'm talking about the Seahawk game

Baldone01

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailwalk
Hi everyone,

I've enjoyed reading as many posts as possible on HDTV OTA setup on this forum.

I really need help determining the best antenna type for my area. I live in Lynnwood, WA 98036 near the intersection of 204th Str. SW and 21st Pl. W.

I've already checked the CEA website and apparently most if not all the stations I'm interested in are UHF channels. The tricky part for my area is that the antenna type indicated for my location is RED. I only live 13 miles from most of the transmitters but apparently there are some hills in between and other types of interferences (trees etc) and maybe the transmitters aren't very strong? My elevation is about 340-360 feet.....but it looks like there is a hilly area in between over 400 feet elevation.

Based on CEA recommendations I need a large Yagi type UHF unidirectional antenna.....but I wonder if a large multidirectional UHF antenna (like a DB4) might work and give me more stations without having to rotate the antenna. The majority of the stations are within 10 degrees of eachother from my location.

I guess with antenna choices it's almost like trial and error to figure out what will work........but I'm hoping someone else that lives in my area might already know what works best.

Thanks for any suggestions
David
David
You're in a pretty good spot. You should be able to clear the only thing that might give you a problem, the hill about 1.5 miles SW, where 228th SW and Brier Road cross. There's a fair amount of trees there. I would only give it maybe a 10% chance they'll give you a problem, and only on ch's 4-5-7-16, the rest should be okay. Of course, any trees near you to the SW might be a problem, so just work around them for location.
A 4221 would probably work fine. All the channels are well within it's range, direction wise, so aiming is not going to be real critical. Try it first without a preamp.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Dan,

Thanks alot for your suggestions and info.......I'll probably go antenna hunting tomorrow. As for the trees, I'm also concerned about a row of trees just south of my house, I'm guessing they're about 200-300yards away. There are spaces in between them and they seem to be all by themselves in a line......hopefully not too much interference.

In my research on antennas, some sources mentioned that a multidirectional antenna like a DB4 or the CM3021/4221 could be problematic if there are interferences or multipath.....what do you think?

Also when I went to Lowe's today they had a combination UHF/VHF antenna CM 3020, do you think that's a good option?

Thanks for your help
David

Tailwalk

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldone01
Per the schedule from HDSportsGuide.com, the game was NOT broadcast in HD. It sure didn't look like HD when compared to the other Fox games.

I'm talking about the Seahawk game
duh. I must have been too drunk to realize that! Seahawk games tend to make me drinky heavily so when they lose it doesn't feel so bad.

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

I'm finally getting good KIRO-DT reception again! I live in Kenmore about 0.6 mi up the slew. Ever since they added an additional TX tube my reception has been poor up North. Looks like KIRO recently enhanced the radiation energy towards Kenmore.

scenic

Seattle WA OTA

I'm curious if any of you pros have opinions or insider knowledge on what improvements we might see with the new 5th generation chips that LG is releasing.

I'm doubly cursed because I'm a ways from the transmitters and I have to shoot through the neighbors' fir trees. I can almost always get KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW, and KTWB, although at times KING and KIRO are problematic. I have a lot of trouble with KCPQ, and KOMO is always a no-go due to their transmitter's orientation.

I use a Fusion PC card, and the signal strength it gives is in DB. I don't know what the numbers mean, but my strong stations are 16-20DB, KIRO and KCPQ are more like 10-13DB, and KOMO is down around 5DB.

Steve Schauer

Seattle WA OTA

anyone from Monroe to Everett having problems with the various incarnations of KCTS-DT? or is it just me (again )

weebling1

Seattle WA OTA

Just checkin' in briefly to let everyone know I've updated the DTV FAQ for our area. I still haven't addressed all of the items I want to update, but I thought I should get a new version out that has the updated Comcast QAM channel numbers and latest multicasting information.

-Lance

lkinley

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally posted by tuquet
Yup, my intention is to let the dogs sleep. But sorry, there was no "Operation" game where I grew up as a kid.
Well that is a real shame. If you've never seen one, the basic idea is to remove various "things" from the "patient" with a pair of tweezers. You had to extract things through very narrow openings. If you touched the side of the opening, a light and buzzer went off and you had to start over. Great for developing a steady hand and nerves of steel!

That begs the question: where did you grow up?

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Lance - thanks for your tireless efforts.

Steve - all I've heard out 5th gen. chips is they are better at dealing with multipath interference. One would hope they would be coupled with better front-ends with better AGC so people in the sticks can get weak stations and people close in won't get overloaded so easily. Without putting an analyzer on your cable it is hard to tell if you are the victim of multipath or weak signals or both. You might investigate a stacked array - check out the general antenna thread at the top of this forum. Some very knowledgeable people hang around there.

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally posted by quarque
Well that is a real shame. If you've never seen one, the basic idea is to remove various "things" from the "patient" with a pair of tweezers. You had to extract things through very narrow openings. If you touched the side of the opening, a light and buzzer went off and you had to start over. Great for developing a steady hand and nerves of steel!

That begs the question: where did you grow up?
VN. The antenna was much simpler to operate on though I couldn't save it. BTW, I tried the antenna outside last Sunday, it was windy and wet. There seemed to be no gain in stability. I am sure there probably would with due diligence but the gain may not be worth the effort. I guess I am content with the attic for now.

tuquet

Seattle WA OTA

VN. Well, just goes to show what one reads into a screen name. I was thinking French Canadian!?! I use my "handle" all over the web and I get tons of spam in Spanish. I guess it looks like Spanish but it is just a nonsense name I came up with because "quark" and every other combination of quarkXXX was already taken when I got my first ISP years ago.

Anyway, it is interesting that you saw no major change going outside. I personally don't think attics are major signal killers in many cases. And I don't subscribe to the theory that you are getting tons of reflected signals being inside an attic (unless you have metal roofing or foil insulation). In my case I found going thru a wall (2 sheets of drywall and a layer of wood siding) reduced my signal more than one layer of plywood and shingles in the roof. I ended up outside anyway because I already had the chimney mount hardware. In the early days I wasn't sure if the dropouts were due to the antenna being inside or not so I wanted to eliminate that variable.

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Perhaps the subconciousness from the French colonization time? No, it was my once up on a time nick name. Otherwise I would not feel comfortable signing it.

tuquet

Seattle WA OTA

Thanks for the FAQ, Lance - great info. I'm in Redmond (160th Ave NE / NE 90th St) experimenting with a Samsung T351 with a Channel Master 4228, currently just up against the wall indoors next to the TV.

Now I can tune in to KOMO (ABC, 4.1) reasonably well (70%, according to the Samsung's bars) but nothing else from Queen Anne, not KING (NBC) nor KIRO (CBS). According to Lance's list, KOMO is the weakest and lowest transmission from Queen Anne, so what would be preventing me from getting the others? Any tips to try to get the tuner to lock in on the others?

I can also get KCPQ (FOX) at 70% with a different antenna angle, and KWPX (PAX) is almost always there. I found a sweet spot to get ABC/FOX/PAX all at 60%, but nothing from Capitol Hill so far. PBS would be great, but looks rather weak on Lance's list. Would a preamp help get any of the others?

Thanks

kwhumphreys

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally posted by kwhumphreys
Thanks for the FAQ, Lance - great info. I'm in Redmond (160th Ave NE / NE 90th St) experimenting with a Samsung T351 with a Channel Master 4228, currently just up against the wall indoors next to the TV.

Now I can tune in to KOMO (ABC, 4.1) reasonably well (70%, according to the Samsung's bars) but nothing else from Queen Anne, not KING (NBC) nor KIRO (CBS). According to Lance's list, KOMO is the weakest and lowest transmission from Queen Anne, so what would be preventing me from getting the others? Any tips to try to get the tuner to lock in on the others?

I can also get KCPQ (FOX) at 70% with a different antenna angle, and KWPX (PAX) is almost always there. I found a sweet spot to get ABC/FOX/PAX all at 60%, but nothing from Capitol Hill so far. PBS would be great, but looks rather weak on Lance's list. Would a preamp help get any of the others?

Thanks
I did a topo plot from your location. You are at about 50 feet elevation and to the WSW of you in line with QA hill is a 450 foot hill. That is blocking your direct line-of-sight to the towers. You are probably getting KOMO via a reflection off something - pure luck. If you are able to get any other Seattle stations it will also be a pure-luck reflection. I would not hold my breath...

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Thanks for plotting my location, Quarque. I knew I didn't have line of sight to anything, and analog reception is terrible, but I found a couple of postings here from folks on Education Hill in Redmond, and a couple of people in my neighborhood said they'd got a few channels with PC cards, so I thought it was worth a try.

Well, after wandering around the house (indoors) carrying the CM4228 for a while last night, I now find I can get everything on Lance's list apart from KVOS and KBTC (which are both really far away). That's all channels from Queen Anne, Capitol Hill, Tiger Mtn, plus FOX from Gold Mtn. There's no way they can all be lucky reflections is there?

I have one sweet spot which gets everything except UPN, and a small change in angle will get that but loses PBS. ABC and NBC are rather weak, and suffered some rain fade last night (extra heavy rain though), but the rest all come in at 60% or higher.

So now I just have to find a sweet spot for the antenna in the attic and I'll be very happy with PBS multicasts and most of the commercial stations (with ReplayTV commercial skip) at the bottom of the Sammamish River valley. Thanks for all the great info on this forum - I'd never have tried otherwise.

kwhumphreys

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally posted by kwhumphreys
Thanks for plotting my location, Quarque. I knew I didn't have line of sight to anything, and analog reception is terrible, but I found a couple of postings here from folks on Education Hill in Redmond, and a couple of people in my neighborhood said they'd got a few channels with PC cards, so I thought it was worth a try.

Well, after wandering around the house (indoors) carrying the CM4228 for a while last night, I now find I can get everything on Lance's list apart from KVOS and KBTC (which are both really far away). That's all channels from Queen Anne, Capitol Hill, Tiger Mtn, plus FOX from Gold Mtn. There's no way they can all be lucky reflections is there?

I have one sweet spot which gets everything except UPN, and a small change in angle will get that but loses PBS. ABC and NBC are rather weak, and suffered some rain fade last night (extra heavy rain though), but the rest all come in at 60% or higher.

So now I just have to find a sweet spot for the antenna in the attic and I'll be very happy with PBS multicasts and most of the commercial stations (with ReplayTV commercial skip) at the bottom of the Sammamish River valley. Thanks for all the great info on this forum - I'd never have tried otherwise.
Well they are either reflections or refractions but definitely not a straight shot from the tower transmitters. You are so close that there is a lot of power even in reflected signals. The 4228 does a pretty good job of rejecting signals from the side or back, so that helps you a bunch. Congrats on your success!

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally posted by quarque
Welcome to AVI Angel. I checked your location and you should have no problems with 4,5,6,7 on Queen Anne or ch 13 in Bremerton. 9,11,22 might give you some problems since you are in the shadow of the Alki hill. Everything is NE of you except ch 13 which is due west. So you may need to rotate your antenna for 13. You should be able to get most or all with an indoor antenna but an outdoor unit is always better.
Quarque, you were pretty much right on. No problems getting 4,5,6,7,13 and surprisingly all the PBS channels with the Silver Sensor. No go on UPN11 and WB22 though.

Is there anything else worth trying before getting an outdoor antenna?

AngelInAlki

Seattle WA OTA

Angel - only thing you can do is try moving the SS around and/or try the attic. The higher the antenna is the better your chances are. If you end up going outside you will probably want a CM4221 or similar 4-bay bowtie on a short mast. You can also try the (cheap & small) Radio Shack yagi: 15-2160. RS is pretty good about returns so give it a shot. I believe Fry's in Renton carries the 4221 if you can find it!

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Tonight I have seen numerous video freezes and audio and video dropouts on KOMO-DT. My reception of the other Seattle DTV stations has been fine.

Anyone else having trouble with KOMO-DT tonight? I am seeing the problem on both my HD TiVo and my Hughes E-86.

It is possible I have a new reception problem here, but I have been watching OTA KOMO-DT for over 4 years with little problems.

Budget_HT

Seattle WA OTA

Similar here, but I didn't think it was a reception problem as they didn't happen at the same time.

tuquet

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget_HT
Tonight I have seen numerous video freezes and audio and video dropouts on KOMO-DT. My reception of the other Seattle DTV stations has been fine.

Anyone else having trouble with KOMO-DT tonight? I am seeing the problem on both my HD TiVo and my Hughes E-86.

It is possible I have a new reception problem here, but I have been watching OTA KOMO-DT for over 4 years with little problems.

I applaud KOMO for it's comittment to HD. Doing every news cast in HD has to be a pretty rare thing nationwide. Their local non-primetime delivery of HD is virtually flawless. I don't think I have ever had a single break up, freeze, audio pop, etc watching the local news in HD on KOMO.

That being said, when primetime rolls around, it's like Dr. Jeckel becomes Mr. Hyde or there is a full moon or something. All hell breaks loose. I consistently get the absolute worst HD delivery from KOMO during primetime than any other local affiliate, bar none! It's not even close. KOMO is in fact the only channel I have consistent drop outs/freezes/audio pops on during primetime. Happens virtually every night... Most notably was last week's LOST episode. I missed entire sentences of dialogue which is nothing unusual, but very frustrating nonetheless.

Don't really know what more I can say about KOMO. I've said it 10 times before exactly the same: primetime on KOMO can be very difficult to stick with for these reasons. Still, I believe KOMO puts the most effort into this HD thing, I just wish they would figure out what's up and fix it sooner than later. I literally have perfect line of site to their towers, I know it's not my end. Others continue to have these freezes/audio pops too, so I know I'm not alone. I admit over the coarse of a year or so the dropouts have been reduced, but not eliminated entirely.

On a more happy note: I relocated my indoor SS a bit and now am picking up 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 7-1, 7-2, 9-1...9-5, 11-1, 16-1, 16-2, 22-1, and for the first time: 33-1...33-4. Unfortunately I now have to rotate the antenna slightlt now for 13-1, but it's a small price to pay for getting all those other channels in one antenna spot. Getting 11, 22, and 33 (Pax) has been very difficult for me in the past. So I'm a happy camper

DrCrawn

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCrawn
Most notably was last week's LOST episode. I missed entire sentences of dialogue which is nothing unusual, but very frustrating nonetheless.
I noticed 2 times, about 22 - 24 minutes into the episode, lasted less than a minute, but during a critical scene, and again about 38 - 40 minutes in. These were the only 2 breakups I had on last week's episode. Far better than back in February, but should be perfect. This is the only local OTA station I have these kinds of issues on. I applaud KOMO for the strides they've made so far, now lets get this last 5%. =)

robglasser

Seattle WA OTA

...problems in LOST...

We were seeing that too, as well as in Alias.

Now, I know we're in the space/time continum warp (tm), (Which just goes to show the plotters aren't always right ) but believe it or not, we have a new mast and antenna on the lake and we get everything almost all of the time. Go figure.

(For those that care, the 4228 was getting overloaded, believe it or not. New antenna handles MP better, but less gain and THAT was the problem)

The only problems we have is the freeze/hiccup in KOMO national feeds and it's never pixellation, which is a serious clue to transmitted signal lost, but full frame hiccup.

mikeg_ms

Seattle WA OTA

This is where Jack Benny puts his hand to his face and says "Oh Don..."

We need some more magic dust or magic beans or something here. I too am seeing the freezes and the season finale of LOST is tonight!

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Swordfish What happened to 11? It was playing for awhile and then poof, gone! Unbelieveable...is it just me? I'm getting no signal whatsovever now.

DrCrawn

Seattle WA OTA

Channel 22-1

Has it changed to 25-1 for everyone?

swwg

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarque
.....

...Radio Shack yagi: 15-2160. RS is pretty good about returns so give it a shot.
Any info on gain and beamwidth?
Thanks

swwg

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by swwg
Channel 22-1

Has it changed to 25-1 for everyone?
yes...my STB will only tune to 25, not 22.

And...it's ridiculously hot in my place right now

DrCrawn

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by swwg
Any info on gain and beamwidth?
Thanks
RS does not publish detailed specs that I can find. One review stated that it has 1-3 dB less gain than the similar CM 4308 yagi. Nothing specific about beamwidth but I would guess similar to 4308 or slightly wider. SO, does anyone have the plot data for the 4308?

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCrawn
yes...my STB will only tune to 25, not 22.

And...it's ridiculously hot in my place right now
25 on mine also. They probably have a problem with the PSIP data encoding or something so the channel mapping feature of the receiver does not know what the analog counterpart channel is. I see this every once in a while on other stations too.

Ridiculously hot? Not in my living room... ahhhhhh
I think AC is the greatest invention EVER.

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Anyone getting crackling sound on KIRO7-DT?

DrCrawn

Seattle WA OTA

Only when I'm watching The Fireplace Show...

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCrawn
Anyone getting crackling sound on KIRO7-DT?
I was getting is yesterday. It was there OTA and Comcast QAM.

scenic

Seattle WA OTA

For the past few days, the Electronic Program Guide for KIRO-DT 7.1 and 7.2 has lacked program information. There is a generic "DTV Program" message. Any idea what's up?

seatacboy

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by seatacboy
For the past few days, the Electronic Program Guide for KIRO-DT 7.1 and 7.2 has lacked program information. There is a generic "DTV Program" message. Any idea what's up?
Yeah, I noticed this as well. I use Titan TV's guide anyways, because my TV doesn't do the Guide function for whatever reason -- it will only tell you what is currently on the channel (?). My converter box for my bedroom TV has the EPG for the next several hours on each channel.

http://www.titantv.com shows it all.

M$GUY

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by M$GUY
45.4 is now broadcasting again, but it is broadcasting infomercials, 24x7.... WTF.... lame. And it still says "SPORTSMN" on the channel ID... this is lame.
I noticed they are the only local that I get that the clock is off on, by about 3 minutes.

Whidbey

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdn
Good luck with the new venture. Do you know if KOMO is planning to move the UHF antenna to the top of the tower when the transition occurs. It would probably help many of us.

If you figure out how to change your handle, let us know (I'd like to change mine so it is the same as on other forums).
I can't speak for what KOMO is planning now, but when I was there, they were planning on installing a new DTV antenna at the top of the tower replacing the existing VHF antenna post analog turn-off. However, I doubt that will happen by the transition, as it involves a great deal of work and expense with removal of the old antenna. It could be a little while after the transition.

Kelly From KOMO

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly From KOMO
WG, I am no longer with KOMO, but am doing some consulting and DTV transmission system design and construction for a systems integrator out of California. I just haven't figured out how to change my handle on this board.
Good luck with the new venture. Do you know if KOMO is planning to move the UHF antenna to the top of the tower when the transition occurs. It would probably help many of us.

If you figure out how to change your handle, let us know (I'd like to change mine so it is the same as on other forums).

rdn

Seattle WA OTA

45.4 is now broadcasting again, but it is broadcasting infomercials, 24x7.... WTF.... lame. And it still says "SPORTSMN" on the channel ID... this is lame.

M$GUY

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by M$GUY
45.4 is now broadcasting again, but it is broadcasting infomercials, 24x7.... WTF.... lame. And it still says "SPORTSMN" on the channel ID... this is lame.
Agree. KHCV may not be faring well financially.

IMHO, KHCV should sell their license and transmitter to another station. If KVOS' new owners were reading this, they should buy KHCV so they can have a stronger presence in the Seattle DMA as a viable independent station (as well as retaining the KVOS viewership in the Vancouver and Victoria, BC areas). Keep in mind the KVOS call letters' original meaning was "Voice of Seattle" - that might actually be a good on-air station brand for a revitalized KVOS franchise.

seatacboy

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by WG in Parkland
Thanks Dan and Ken and Kelly for the advise. BTW - KOMO 4 has always been the hardest to get in Analog. I do have some work to do concerning the cable drop and replacing the amp. Also I will tweak the position, but need 2 people to pull that off.

Concerning HD broadcast vs digital broadcast - does it really matter when using a converter box? - That is what I am using to pull the digital signal to get ready for the conversion. I know this is a HD thread, but it is Digital I
am currently working on.

Lets see so far - new Antenna ($140), new digital box ($20 over the coupon price), replacing coax (in the $50+ range), and new amp($?), and still a gamble if I will get the same stations I can get analog - this Digital TV "upgrade" is a royal pain.

- WG
WG
Digital broadcast is basically one big channel. It has sub channels, sometimes, but it all comes in as one. If there's HD sub channels in there, fine. But for reception, if you get one sub channel, you get them all or nothing.
This thread is for over the air reception of digital, so it's all the same.
Your coax shouldn't cost $50 unless you're getting it at Rat Shack. Try Home Depot by the foot and a few fittings.
Sadly, not everyone will get every digital channel. Like everything new, it takes a while to work things out. True, it's been out for about ten years, here, but a lot of work has been done and is ongoing. Right now, the best tuners are the HD versions. In time, like everything that gets built in quantities, the cost will come down and improvements will be included. Do what you can afford, now, and when you get a few more bucks, you might try a Samsung H260. By then, it might be even better and cheaper. And it does output standard definition.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Hi Dan,

Yes the website is up! Shameless plug: http://www.dtvrules.com.

Indeed I agree that a good quality preamp is okay, but I've seen some installations that struggle receiving some channels because of either noise being amplified, or the amp has poor bandwidth across the UHF band, (especially in the 600 MHz range). I've always suggested that users try not using a preamp or amp first. My experience is the only benefit of an amp is to make up line loss after a split. There is more detail on my blog at the website.

WG, I am no longer with KOMO, but am doing some consulting and DTV transmission system design and construction for a systems integrator out of California. I just haven't figured out how to change my handle on this board.

Kelly From KOMO

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly From KOMO
Hi Dan,

Yes the website is up! Shameless plug: http://www.dtvrules.com.

Indeed I agree that a good quality preamp is okay, but I've seen some installations that struggle receiving some channels because of either noise being amplified, or the amp has poor bandwidth across the UHF band, (especially in the 600 MHz range). I've always suggested that users try not using a preamp or amp first. My experience is the only benefit of an amp is to make up line loss after a split. There is more detail on my blog at the website.

WG, I am no longer with KOMO, but am doing some consulting and DTV transmission system design and construction for a systems integrator out of California. I just haven't figured out how to change my handle on this board.
Kelly
Site looks good.
One thing that will surprise you is how well some tuners handle noise. Normally, anytime I see less than -12 to -15db, and a shaky waveshape, no amount of amplification helps, no matter how good. Under the right conditions, though, I've seen them work with less than -30 and a 20+db Blonder Tongue or 7775. Out in the boondocks, where residual noise is minimal, you can get away with even more amplification. It all depends on a lot of things going right, but it does happen. The newer tuners like the Samsung H260 are very sensitive and selective. It pulls in ch27 from the backside of my 4221, and my Sencore, which reads to -35, doesn't even see any signal! Amazing. Some Direct boxes do well, others don't. Real hit and miss. In town, as long as you're above -12, usually, the 26db gain of the 7775 or 7777 will work fine. Most tuners can't handle more than +20.
I agree, it's always better to start with more antenna than using an amp. Trouble is most customers want the install to have minimal visual impact.
Sokay. I enjoy a good challenge!

I'll check back with you on your site in a week or so.
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly From KOMO
Dan speaks the truth, although I can add that my experience is any of the Radio Shack amps are bad news for DTV reception. They all have funky equalization problems, (bandwidth) and amplify noise almost better than signals. If you need an amp because of spilitting signals to several places in the house, go with a good Spaun or at least a Channel Master amp. Also place the amp after the first 1X2 split, or before a 1X4 or 1X6 split. Make sure you terminate all the unused spigots with 75 ohm termination connectors.
Kelly
Good advice. One point to clarify.
The Channel Master 7777 is a preamp. It has two pieces, the amplifier, usually located as close as possible to the antenna, and a power supply that's left inside, usually near the receiver or tuner. You cannot put a regular splitter in between. It will short out the power supply. After the power supply is fine.
A regular indoor amplifier, which is what you were talking about, can have splits before or after.

Is the new website up yet?
Dan

DanKurts

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKurts
Ken H
Agree, an antenna can be used for analog or digital. The same antenna can, however, give widely varying results between digital or analog, among other things. That's why comparisons to how well an analog station comes in on a particular antenna or location doesn't always correlate to how well it will do for HD.
Around the greater Puget Sound area, the antenna WG is using is fairly rare. In the ten years we've had HD here, I've never seen one on a HD survey or connected one to my meter for HD reception capabilites. I have replaced them decades ago on analog installs, usually with Channel Master Crossfire's, which worked better for ghosting, a big problem around Fir trees and hills.
It's very possible that this antenna will work fine. I've just never had the chance to compare it to anything for HD, so I'm not sure how well it will work in all those trees near WG.
Sorry to hear about your break in, WG. I know it's more than material loss. Take care.
Dan
Thanks Dan and Ken and Kelly for the advise. BTW - KOMO 4 has always been the hardest to get in Analog. I do have some work to do concerning the cable drop and replacing the amp. Also I will tweak the position, but need 2 people to pull that off.

Concerning HD broadcast vs digital broadcast - does it really matter when using a converter box? - That is what I am using to pull the digital signal to get ready for the conversion. I know this is a HD thread, but it is Digital I
am currently working on.

Lets see so far - new Antenna ($140), new digital box ($20 over the coupon price), replacing coax (in the $50+ range), and new amp($?), and still a gamble if I will get the same stations I can get analog - this Digital TV "upgrade" is a royal pain.

- WG

WG in Parkland

Seattle WA OTA

Larry,

Would it be possible for you to check the intersection of Juanita-Woodinville Way NE and NE 149th St.? This is right on the line between Kirkland and Bothell. We are looking at a house in that area and i'm hoping the reception will be better then my experiance in Issaquah.

Thanks.

IssaquahHD

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by litzdog911
Fortunately it's the just the "high VHF band" channels we'll have to worry about (Channel 9-13). ...
Most UHF antennas will do OK on 9-13. The 4228 for example has 8-9 dB gain in that frequency range. So unless you are beyond 30 miles I wouldn't start fretting, just yet.

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by IssaquahHD
Larry,

Would it be possible for you to check the intersection of Juanita-Woodinville Way NE and NE 149th St.? This is right on the line between Kirkland and Bothell. We are looking at a house in that area and i'm hoping the reception will be better then my experiance in Issaquah.

Thanks.
That area is at about 200 feet and 2 miles SW is a 450 foot hill that falls right on the LOS to the property. A mast on a 2-story house should clear the hill. But even at lower elevation you might do OK with a decent antenna. How thick are the trees around the property in question?

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Ebby
Any information on when this will happen? Any chance any of them might mirror a UHF signal?
Uhhhhhh..... 2007???? Make your own guess.
No mirrors or smoke likely, due to the expense.

quarque

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarque
That area is at about 200 feet and 2 miles SW is a 450 foot hill that falls right on the LOS to the property. A mast on a 2-story house should clear the hill. But even at lower elevation you might do OK with a decent antenna. How thick are the trees around the property in question?
There aren't any major trees within a block or so of the house in that direction. It sounds like I should be ok. Thanks for the information.

IssaquahHD

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldone01
Since I can't receive any of the Seattle stations OTA, I have to rely on my local cableco (Wave) to receive the locals in HD. For the last several days, I'm not receiving KOMO in HD at all (SD signal only). Wave claims that it's a problem @ KOMO & that it's being worked on (involves replacing a defective part @ KOMO per Wave). I haven't seen a single post about this. Is Wave the only ones having this problem?
Channel 104 on Wave Broadband should be OK this evening. They found a problem in the receiver firmware. Replacement with an older version solved the problem

Don

Don Wilkinson

Seattle WA OTA

FWIW, DirecTV seems to have lost KOMO for a period this evening, around 6:00 p.m. I didn't check it on my second receiver, but the other channels were coming in fine on my main receiver. I wonder if it's somehow related to the problem WAVE had?

Karyk

Seattle WA OTA

I had more cracking sound coming from KIRO-DT yesterday...today it's gone. WTH? Please tell me this isnt my STB going...

DrCrawn

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCrawn
I had more cracking sound coming from KIRO-DT yesterday...today it's gone. WTH? Please tell me this isnt my STB going...
Not likely. I recall a similar situation a couple of weeks ago with another channel but my STB is still working. Digital TV as we find, has a different set of annoyances than the conventional analog TV.

swwg

Seattle WA OTA

I use three indoor antennas with an A/B/C selector switch. Two "silver sensors" and a UHF antenna modified for indoor use. The closest TV transmitters are 11 miles to the southwest and southeast. There are some transmitters that are 26 miles south of my place. One transmitter is 90 miles north of my place.

I can receive DTV channels 4,5,7,9,11,13,16,20,22 ,24,33,45,and 51 - all very clear and reliable despite numerous 80-90 ft douglas firs 500 ft south of me and three 30 ft trees only 25 ft north of me. Well, I consider myself lucky.

I added a 13dB amplifier to stabilize CH 20 and 24. These are the two channels that have drop outs when the weather changes.

Addendum: I use an outdoor antenna in the living room because I have not figured out how to mount a "silver sensor" nicely on an ornamental post. In the above paragraphs, I have underlined those items I revised since my initial post.

swwg

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by swwg
I use three indoor antennas with an A/B/C selector switch. Two "silver sensors" and a UHF antenna modified for indoor use. The closest TV transmitters are 11 miles to the southwest and southeast. There are some transmitters that are 26 miles south of my place. One transmitter is 90 miles north of my place.

I can receive CH 4,5,7,9,11,13,20,24,33,45,and 51 - all very clear and reliable despite numerous 80-90 ft douglas firs 500 ft south of me and three 30 ft trees only 25 ft north of me. Well, I consider myself lucky.

I added a 13dB amplifier to stabilize CH 20 and 24.
Nice strategy. Are these the Analog channels you're receiving, or their Digital equivalents? What about channel 16 (KONG) and channel 22 (KTWB)?

litzdog911

Seattle WA OTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by litzdog911
Nice strategy. Are these the Analog channels you're receiving, or their Digital equivalents? What about channel 16 (KONG) and channel 22 (KTWB)?
Oops. I neglected to post channel 16 and 22. I will edit my original post. Yes, they are all DTV channels.

swwg

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