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Question Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905 ( AVS Forum AMPs, Receivers, and Processors )
Updated: 2008-06-18 06:30:56 (88)
Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Please forgive me if this has been posted before. This forum gets at least 200 hundred post a day and it's hard to sift through it all so.....I was wondering if anyone else trying to decide between the two models. Is it just the 4308 or 4308ci? Is there a difference? There's about a $500 dollar difference between the two and I think they come out at around the same time(August). I think the 4308 doesn't have the Reon processor, but I am not entirely sure about that. Anyone have a link on the specs? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Answers: Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905 ( AVS Forum AMPs, Receivers, and Processors )
Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801887

Both the 3808ci and 4308ci use Faroudja FLI2310 processing, the same thing you find in the Oppo DVD players.

bfdtv

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801887

Both the 3808ci and 4308ci use Faroudja FLI2310 processing, the same thing you find in the Oppo DVD players.

I know the Oppo DVD players come very highly rated, but is this also a good thing for A/V receivers? I know the Oppo upscales DVD would you have the same result say upscaling a 480i Dish or Direct signal with the Faroudja?

I also know the Reon and the gennum processors are highly recommended too.

I am interested in these two receivers as well and it will be interesting to see some first end user reports on these two to see how they work.

dazed

dazed_n_confuzed

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801887

Both the 3808ci and 4308ci use Faroudja FLI2310 processing, the same thing you find in the Oppo DVD players.

Ok so it has the Faroudja FLI2310 processor in it. Is that the same chip that the Onkyo lower end models have?(605,805,etc) Some guy in another post mentioned that there were different Faroudja chips (whatever you call it) out there. If so, then is this FLI2310 better than the REON. I know a few people out there are wondering like me. I'm not sure the 4308CI is worth the 2500 dollars especially if this Faroudja chip is inferior to the REON. ANy other thoughts?

Shatter Star

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Most people on this forum would say that Reon is superior.
If you need it or not is different question altogether.

kktk

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatter Star
Ok so it has the Faroudja FLI2310 processor in it. Is that the same chip that the Onkyo lower end models have?(605,805,etc) Some guy in another post mentioned that there were different Faroudja chips (whatever you call it) out there. If so, then is this FLI2310 better than the REON. I know a few people out there are wondering like me. I'm not sure the 4308CI is worth the 2500 dollars especially if this Faroudja chip is inferior to the REON. ANy other thoughts?
There is reason to believe that the Faroudja chip in the new Denon line is comparable to the Reon VX (quote from chief engineer from Denon). You can believe what you want, but I'll wait for the Denon to be reviewed alongside the Onkyo before I make my purchase.

It was said before that the 2310 chip did not properly deinterlace 1080i signals. This is supposed to be a new and customized chip from Faroudja that is supposed to fix issues from previous generations. We'll just have to wait a few weeks more to find out.

ryarber

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber
There is reason to believe that the Faroudja chip in the new Denon line is comparable to the Reon VX (quote from chief engineer from Denon).
That's hogwash.

There's a reason Denon uses the Genesis Faroudja FLI2310 in their lowest-end model (2308) and Silicon Optix HQV in their top-end model (5308).

The question to Denon was phrased poorly -- they got a marketing answer, which is exactly what you would expect. No company is going to admit to a poor design choice -- or that a competing product offers better performance -- prior to release. Had they asked Denon in a different way, i.e. "does the Silicon Optix HQV in the 5308 produce a better picture than the Faroudja FLI2310 in the 2308," they would have received a very different answer.

Quote:
You can believe what you want, but I'll wait for the Denon to be reviewed alongside the Onkyo before I make my purchase.
Nothing can change the fact that the FLI2310 is a low-end solution with mediocre scaling performance and limited capability when it comes to high-definition processing. It's always been a good solution for SD deinterlace, aside from the macroblocking issue, when implemented properly.

Quote:
It was said before that the 2310 chip did not properly deinterlace 1080i signals. This is supposed to be a new and customized chip from Faroudja that is supposed to fix issues from previous generations. We'll just have to wait a few weeks more to find out.
I'll believe it when I see it, but Faroudja was telling customers otherwise (i.e. no IVTC on 1080i signals) as of a few months ago.

bfdtv

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
That's hogwash.

There's a reason Denon uses the Genesis Faroudja FLI2310 in their lowest-end model (2308) and Silicon Optix HQV in their top-end model (5308).
If you are going to argue so strongly about something, at least get your facts straight. First, there is no Denon 5308, it is the 5805ci, and second, even the 5805ci uses a Faroudja chip. It is only Denon's DVD players that use the Realta T2? HQV chip by Teranex.

hifisponge

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge
If you are going to argue so strongly about something, at least get your facts straight. First, there is no Denon 5308, it is the 5805ci, and second, even the 5805ci uses a Faroudja chip. It is only Denon's DVD players that use the Realta T2? HQV chip by Teranex.
You might want to be more careful when you accuse others of misstating facts.

Denon has multiple 2007 models on the way. These include the $849 2308ci, $1199 2808ci, $1599 3808ci, $2499 4308ci, and $5199 5308ci. AVS has threads devoted to each of these models, save for the 2308ci. For your benefit, here is the link to the 5308ci thread.

According to the product information sent to dealers, and reposted in the Denon 3808/4308 thread, the 2308ci - 4308ci use the Genesis' Faroudja FLI2310, while the 5308ci uses Silicon Optix HQV processing, and more specifically, the Realta. According to posts by oyfoo of Silicon Optix on this forum, there is essentially no difference in deinterlace and scaling performance between the ReonVX and Realta. The primary differences: the Realta will scale to 2560x1600p, can handle less common cadences such as 6:4 and 8:7, and supports noise reduction on HD signals, whereas the ReonVX is limited to 1920x1080p and only supports noise and block reduction on SD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatter Star
Ok so it has the Faroudja FLI2310 processor in it. Is that the same chip that the Onkyo lower end models have?(605,805,etc) Some guy in another post mentioned that there were different Faroudja chips (whatever you call it) out there.
When properly implemented, FLI2030's SD deinterlace is better than the FLI812x in the 605-805. The FLI812x in the 605-805 has a built-in 8-bit converter to do the analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion for s-video, composite, and component sources, whereas the FLI2310 does not. The FLI2310 requires a separate analog-to-digital (A/D) converter.

As far as I can tell, the 3808/4308 and 875/905 are using the same Analog Devices' 216MHz NSV ICs to do analog-to-digital conversion for s-video, composite, and component sources. This is an upgrade over the integrated Faroudja 8-bit A/D conversion found in the FLI812x (used in the 605-805).

In their response, Denon said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denon
Also Faroudja as always been known to be better at converting analog video with less issues than anyone else. Hope this helps.
That comment makes absolutely no sense because Denon is not using the Faroudja to convert analog to digital in the 3808/4308. That's what Onkyo is doing in the 605-805. The approach taken for converting analog sources on the 875/905 and 3808/4308 -- using a dedicated A/D circuit from Analog Devices -- is much preferred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatter Star
I'm not sure the 4308CI is worth the 2500 dollars especially if this Faroudja chip is inferior to the REON. ANy other thoughts?
I would not expect the Faroudja to offer comparable performance, but worse case, you can disable it and use pass-through mode. As always, I would wait for reviews, comparisons, and test results before spending $$$$ on a receiver.

Cnet commented on the 605's Faroudja processing in their review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnet
In terms of video performance, we weren't too impressed. The most disappointing aspect of the TX-SR605's video performance is that it either lacks or has poor 2:3 pull-down processing. This was evident with Silicon Optix's HQV test disc, as well as on Star Trek: Insurrection and Seabiscuit. Without 2:3 pull-down processing, we found film-based movies were filled with jaggies when the TX-SR605 was responsible for deinterlacing. For example, we ran our tests from the Samsung BD-P1000 to the TX-SR605 via S-Video, and then out to the Sony KDL-46S3000 using the HDMI connection. In this configuration, the opening sequence of Seabiscuit was filled with jaggies on almost every image that the camera panned on, with artifacts that would be noticeable to even those who aren't picky about video quality. Similarly, on the introduction to Star Trek: Insurrection, the boats on the riverside clearly had jaggies instead of being represented by a smooth line.

We also noticed that the TX-SR605 was softening the resolution of images that it deinterlaced; this was confirmed on the HQV test disc as well. In areas where there should have been detail, there was just a solid color. On the other hand, the TX-SR605 did a very good job with several other tests on the HQV test suite, including tests with a rotating white line, three pivoting fingers, and footage of a waving flag.

While the video performance of the TX-SR605 was disappointing, in our experience subpar video processing by AV receivers is common. We've mentioned it in reviews of the Sony STR-DA5200ES, the Yamaha RX-V1700, and the Pioneer VSX-82TXS.

bfdtv

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
You might want to be more careful when you accuse others of misstating facts.

Denon has multiple 2007 models on the way. These include the $849 2308ci, $1199 2808ci, $1599 3808ci, $2499 4308ci, and $5199 5308ci. AVS has threads devoted to each of these models, save for the 2308ci. For your benefit, here is the link to the 5308ci thread.
My bad. It is clear that it is I that needs to get the facts straight. Please accept my sincere appologies.

hifisponge

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Well, for those who have missed it, the 4308ci is up on Denon's web site along the with manual. On paper it looks really nice, the only question is the real-world difference in the video processing (and audio, of course, but I'm assuming neither is going to mess that up).

Jay_Davis

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis
Well, for those who have missed it, the 4308ci is up on Denon's web site along the with manual. On paper it looks really nice, the only question is the real-world difference in the video processing (and audio, of course, but I'm assuming neither is going to mess that up).
This is probably doesn't matter to anyone, but I found it strange that Denon was only offering 2 year warranties on their A\V receivers. I guess I figured Denon would have a longer lasting warranty then Onkyo. Even Integra offers longer warranties......

Shatter Star

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I am leaning towards the 4308 still (barely) as long as the VP isn't a disaster. One main reason is that I have a Denon 2930 and would really like to use Denon Link 3 for my audio.

rkgriffin

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
That's hogwash.

There's a reason Denon uses the Genesis Faroudja FLI2310 in their lowest-end model (2308) and Silicon Optix HQV in their top-end model (5308).

The question to Denon was phrased poorly -- they got a marketing answer, which is exactly what you would expect. No company is going to admit to a poor design choice -- or that a competing product offers better performance -- prior to release. Had they asked Denon in a different way, i.e. "does the Silicon Optix HQV in the 5308 produce a better picture than the Faroudja FLI2310 in the 2308," they would have received a very different answer.

Nothing can change the fact that the FLI2310 is a low-end solution with mediocre scaling performance and limited capability when it comes to high-definition processing. It's always been a good solution for SD deinterlace, aside from the macroblocking issue, when implemented properly.

I'll believe it when I see it, but Faroudja was telling customers otherwise (i.e. no IVTC on 1080i signals) as of a few months ago.
Now this is the kind of post I like to see here more often to keep everyone on track. Thanks!

reincarnate

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I've been a long time Denon supporter, but this year Onkyo top end models[875,905] are giving a run for their money of the mid level Denons like the 4308 IMO.

thehun

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate
Now this is the kind of post I like to see here more often to keep everyone on track. Thanks!
I don't disagree with him. It was probably all marketing hype he was dishing out, but he does leave some room for optimism about their offerings.

Personally, I'm teetering between the 905, the 4308, and if I don't like either of these offerings, I'll step up to the 5308. That's a big jump, but I want a good all-in-one solution. May be a bit more than I need in some areas, but what the heck, you only live once.

ryarber

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

The one thing I like about the denon is the support for 9 speakers in one zone as my current setup has and also power for 2 speakers in zone 2.

JC7727

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber
I don't disagree with him. It was probably all marketing hype he was dishing out, but he does leave some room for optimism about their offerings.

Personally, I'm teetering between the 905, the 4308, and if I don't like either of these offerings, I'll step up to the 5308. That's a big jump, but I want a good all-in-one solution. May be a bit more than I need in some areas, but what the heck, you only live once.
I too am debating the 905 vs the 4308 and am impatiently waiting for reviews of both. However, in my mind before I'd pay $5k for the Denon 5308 I'd likely go for a pre/pro and amp setup. For that amount of cash I think you'd be better off going to seperates. For me part of the appeal of the 905/4308 product level is the bang for buck factor (i.e. it would be difficult to get the same functionality and performance out of seperates for that cost).

It's a tough sell going from a reciever in the $2500 range all the way up to $5200 (for the 5308). Please set me straight if I got this wrong.

mnn1265

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnn1265
I too am debating the 905 vs the 4308 and am impatiently waiting for reviews of both. However, in my mind before I'd pay $5k for the Denon 5308 I'd likely go for a pre/pro and amp setup. For that amount of cash I think you'd be better off going to seperates. For me part of the appeal of the 905/4308 product level is the bang for buck factor (i.e. it would be difficult to get the same functionality and performance out of seperates for that cost).

It's a tough sell going from a reciever in the $2500 range all the way up to $5200 (for the 5308). Please set me straight if I got this wrong.
Well the only pre/pros out right now that have even close to the connectivity and functionality of the 5308 are the Anthem D2 and the Lexicon MC12HD. The Anthem will run ya $6700, and when you add a matching A5 amp to that you are looking at around $9400. If you want 7 channels of amplification, then you are looking at $10,900. Thats more than twice the price of the Denon 5308.

Some, maybe many, will argue with this, but it has been my experience that the point of dimishing returns has lowered considerably for front-end audio components over the past 5 years. Just like PC's or any other tech, it becomes cheaper and cheaper each year to produce the parts, and frankly I think the audio components in most AVRs are overkill for what they need to do. I mean seriously, do we really need DACs with 113-123dB of dynamic range when most of what we listen to has a dynamic range of maybe 20dB? A good upper level AVR will give you 90% of the performance of seperates (except in very large rooms or with very low impedance speakers), and AVRs always have more current tech than pre/pros.

hifisponge

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

The manual for the Onkyo 905 has just been posted on Onkyo's website, for those wanting to compare to Denon

dude2006

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge
Well the only pre/pros out right now that have even close to the connectivity and functionality of the 5308 are the Anthem D2 and the Lexicon MC12HD. The Anthem will run ya $6700, and when you add a matching A5 amp to that you are looking at around $9400. If you want 7 channels of amplification, then you are looking at $10,900. Thats more than twice the price of the Denon 5308.
I believe you forgot the Anthem AVM-50 which retails for $4699 and has most of the features of the D2 and depending on how much power you would need you could always connect that to an Outlaw 7 channel amp for another grand or two. I think for a little extra the AVM-50 with whichever amp a person would want would be a better deal than the High-end Denon, unless you want an all in one configuration.

PLC1843

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
Nothing can change the fact that the FLI2310 is a low-end solution with mediocre scaling performance and limited capability when it comes to high-definition processing. It's always been a good solution for SD deinterlace, aside from the macroblocking issue, when implemented properly.
Bfdtv, do you have any idea what Faroujda chip is inside the new Sony 5300? It seemed to get an excellent review from CNET for among other things, video processing. They were very quick to condemn last year's version of this model, the 5200, specifically FOR poor video processing. So Sony seems to have made some radical changes in the video processing on the 5300 and CNET emphasized that.

Ken Ross

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Since this is a 4308 vs 905 thread, here is a few question.

Q1. After looking thru both the 905 and 4308 manual, I see the 4308 offers via analog input, Picture Adjust..... see attachment (denon pic adjust). I do not see anything about such a feature in the 905 manual?

Q2. Looking thru the 4308 manual, I see the ability to view video on the HDTV, and listen to a different audio input at the same time. (see attachment denon input video mode). Albiet it appears this video selection does only work for non HDMI input? I will have component input from the cable STB, so this should work, allowing TV viewing while listening to an input source of my choosing.

I do not see anything like this in the 905 manual?

Q3. I want a good OSD to see what FM/AM/XM station I am tuned to, or to see what audio codec is being used, etc.

I appears the Denon 3808 ----up allow this type of viewing. I see this for the 905(see attachment 905 display info and 905 display immediate.) Will the 905 allow OSD of this info?

Lots of questions...... few answers at this point.

bwclark

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I too have been waiting to see how the 905 and 4308 are received by everyone on this forum, I currently have a 4802 and have the upgrade itch for the HDMI switching capability and the up-conversion ability of the new receivers. My BIGGEST concern is sound quality since I still listen to 2.1 music about 50% of the time through my Klipsch Forte's and Hsu Sub, any opinions on audio comparisons between either the 905 and 4308 and my current 4802?? I'm leaning to the 905 because of the torrodial supply but I REALLY like the sound aof a Denon through the Klipsch...

Daverph

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

You might want to see if you can contact the guy that wrote this, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...02#post8055130
...though he was comparing to a 4306 not a 4308.

rsalexan

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I almost bought the 4308, but just pre-ordered the 905 with Value Electronics this morning. At $500 less than the 4308, and potentially better video processing, it was an easy choice for me. WiFi was tempting on the 4308, but I doubt I would ever use it.

I'm going to sell my 5803, so I won't be out too much for the new receiver.

yngdiego

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Another Question.....

See attached pic re: Output from the 905.

So, the question is... What if I want to use BOTH Component out to my HDTV component IN AND HDMI out to my HDTV DVI IN?

Is there an easy way to select either output to accomplish this?

bwclark

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

A bit hard to understand exactly all what you want to do. But it looks like at the bottom of that JPG that you also want to do a HDMI input to a component output.
You can't convert a HDMI input to a component output. So if you were thinking of doing that, that's out.

Johnla

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I am interested in being able to take the Cable STB (component in) to the component in on the HDTV via the 905. (I may have to go directly to the HDTV and just take audio to the AVR...that's what I do now).

I also want to take my Tosh XA2 (HDMI in 1080p) to the DVI on my HDTV via the AVR HDMI out.

So, being able to switch outputs would be nice, but I do not see that it is easy in the Onkyos 875/905?

bwclark

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego
I almost bought the 4308, but just pre-ordered the 905 with Value Electronics this morning. At $500 less than the 4308, and potentially better video processing, it was an easy choice for me. WiFi was tempting on the 4308, but I doubt I would ever use it.

I'm going to sell my 5803, so I won't be out too much for the new receiver.
Yngdiego,

I am thinking the same way. So here is my question. What is the purpose of the ethernet connection on the Denon. To upgrade firmware?

Also, how much stock do you place in HD radio? Why can I only find that in high-end models?

Phrynichus

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

The ethernet connection on the Denons is for streaming audio and pictures as well as internet radio. And yes, it can be used for firmware updates!

bwclark

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

The Denon can also stream internet radio, and photos/audio from a PC. Firmware upgrades and remote diags by Denon can also be done over the web interface. I *think* you can also do some setup via the web, but I'm not sure.

Given the 905 is $500 less and has a better video engine, I was sold.

yngdiego

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego
The Denon can also stream internet radio, and photos/audio from a PC. Firmware upgrades and remote diags by Denon can also be done over the web interface. I *think* you can also do some setup via the web, but I'm not sure.

Given the 905 is $500 less and has a better video engine, I was sold.

Now the 905 has an ethernet connection too, right (http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9712132-1.html)? So you do get networking (I think).

Also, are you saying that Denon firmware updates for receivers can be gotten through a PC (using a flashkey, eg)? Does Onkyo do this too? The 905 has a USB port, so would firmware updates be possible?

I ask all this because I torn between the 905 and 4308. I have a PS3 and HD-XA2. Both have been substantially improved through firmware updates. I am trying to get a sense of how important that is now for receveivers too. No one really seems to know...

Phrynichus

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

It is my understanding that the Ethernet in the Denons has the ability to update firmware, at least according to the manual. I don't think the 905, which has ethernet was designed to allow firmware update...not in the manual that I found. It is mainly for streaming music.
905 firmware will be done via connection to the PC.

bwclark

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I am torn between the 4308ci/TX-NR905 also,but here are the main issues for me.
First, REON vs FAROUJDA.
Now,my display (Mitsubishi 73927)does not have a 1080P input, so the superior deinterlacing of 1080i in the REON will not work for me. I wonder if I would notice a difference in SD tv or DVD upconversion with the REON over the FAROUJDA chip?
I am not likely to upgrade my TV for many years.
Second, DENON LINK.
My dvd player (DENON DVD-3910) will output DVD-AUDIO over HDMI,but I was told by denon
customer service that it WILL NOT output SACD MULTICHANNEL over HDMI. Yes,I could just
use 5.1 analog cables for this purpose,but would there be a sound quality drop?
Multichannel recordings are a HUGE pleasure for me.
Third,XM and SIRIUS.
It would be nice to be able to do either,and it bugs me a little that the 4308ci does'nt have
a SIRIUS connection.
Fourth, IPOD.
It seems DENON has a feature for uncompressing(?) or cleaning up MP3's,and ONKYO doesn't. Has this feature ever been offered in any other recievers,and does it actually help?

That's it,but I must admit that as a current DENON owner,I am leaning toward ONKYO,
but hesitantly.Oh yeah,PRICE does matter!
Anyone weighing some of the same things as me I would love to hear what you're thinking,too.
Thanks, FRAN

FRAN HEARLEY

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge
If you are going to argue so strongly about something, at least get your facts straight. First, there is no Denon 5308, it is the 5805ci, and second, even the 5805ci uses a Faroudja chip. It is only Denon's DVD players that use the Realta T2? HQV chip by Teranex.

Yes there is a 5308 its supposed to ship sometime this fall, just released in a press release a few days ago.

bluewaves

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewaves
Yes there is a 5308 its supposed to ship sometime this fall, just released in a press release a few days ago.
December was the report I saw... that's seems like a long time to wait to release it considering people will have plenty of time to pick up a 905 while trying to hold out for the Denon. It's curious how Denon marketing handled this years new models... seems as though Onkyo blindsided them from what I can see.

mnn1265

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwclark
I am interested in being able to take the Cable STB (component in) to the component in on the HDTV via the 905. (I may have to go directly to the HDTV and just take audio to the AVR...that's what I do now).

I also want to take my Tosh XA2 (HDMI in 1080p) to the DVI on my HDTV via the AVR HDMI out.

So, being able to switch outputs would be nice, but I do not see that it is easy in the Onkyos 875/905?

Could someone elaborate on this ?

kktk

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Hi All,

I am joining into this a little late. I currently have an old EAD Theatermaster Signature Preamp Processor.

I am interested in consolidating my sources; which consists of PS3, Xbox 360 with HD Dvd, Shaw HD PVR Cable Box, Sony SCD-777es Sacd player and taking advantage of the new HD Audio through HDMI 1.3 and having everything upconverted to 1080P.

But the hick up is that I plan on upgrading my current JVC DILA 61" Rear Projection to a Sony Pearl with an Anamorphic Lens.

My goal is to do 2:35 aspect ratio dvd movies in the wider scope screen; and I think that I need a scaler that can process this.

So does that mean that using a Sony Pearl and an anamorphic lens; would the scalers in either of these Receivers Onkyo 905 or denon 4308 receiver have the capability to use with a projector that has an Anamorphic lens?

Thanks in advance, BK

bkwong73

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I am also curious on this topic. 4308 is available for purchase while 905 is not. So the $500 extra for Denon... not sure what I will be paying for. Wifi connection and a different upscaler. Let me ask this question. Also, Onkyo is Ultra2 certified. I am not sure.

niksem

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by niksem
I am also curious on this topic. 4308 is available for purchase while 905 is not. So the $500 extra for Denon... not sure what I will be paying for. Wifi connection and a different upscaler. Let me ask this question. Also, Onkyo is Ultra2 certified. I am not sure.
I have owned Pioneer, Onkyo, and Denon, and have found all to be very fine receivers. As of now I have a Denon 2807 and was thinking of upgrading to the 4308. Unfortunately after seeing the specs on 4308 I was somewhat disappointed. The 905 with its Reon, better Dacs, and THX Ultra2 (which is the mode that many Onkyo owners seem to prefer) persuaded me to pull the trigger on the 905. I preordered mine from J&R last week, but If you can't wait and don't care about the price, O C has them in stock right now.

godzilliga

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

abt has the 905 for 1499 shipped but will be 10-14 days before they ship out. someone mentioned robert at VE had gotten a second 905 shipment in, you'd have to call VE and check to be sure.

dssturbo1

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I picked up my 4308 and after a couple of hours of setup here is what I have noticed.

1. Setup via remote is very slow. There are a lot of fields to change for each input especially if you have HDMI audo.

2. Web setup is terrible. You can do the basics but its hard to tell if it saved or anything as there is no feedback.

3. Wireless has no power. The receiver got a signal strength of about 2%. The laptop next to it had 99%. Adding a boosted antennae had no effect.

4. When using wired connection my router would crash as well as the switch the receiver is attached to. Could be a bad Ethernet port. It wonít even stay up long enough to get a sniff to see whatís up. Return here I come.

5. Component fails to switch if multiple devices are powered. I am running my Comcast box and the Wii over component. When both are powered up neither will get a picture. Power one down and it works fine. Really bad mojo.

6. Massive audio error from HD-DVD. I canít say this was the fault of the receiver but when I was verifying my Harmony settings the HD-DVD player had a horrible screeching sound during the opening film studio screen for Hot Fuzz. I had been testing it earlier with no issues. It hasnít happened since but my ears still hurt

As for the good. Sounds great. There appears to be a lot more power out compared to my older 3805. More than expected anyway.

The really bad. Fry's should have 905's in on Friday and I may get one to compare and switch out. The lack of internet is a real killer for me.

kalock

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
You might want to be more careful when you accuse others of misstating facts.

Denon has multiple 2007 models on the way. These include the $849 2308ci, $1199 2808ci, $1599 3808ci, $2499 4308ci, and $5199 5308ci. AVS has threads devoted to each of these models, save for the 2308ci. For your benefit, here is the link to the 5308ci thread.

According to the product information sent to dealers, and reposted in the Denon 3808/4308 thread, the 2308ci - 4308ci use the Genesis' Faroudja FLI2310, while the 5308ci uses Silicon Optix HQV processing, and more specifically, the Realta. According to posts by oyfoo of Silicon Optix on this forum, there is essentially no difference in deinterlace and scaling performance between the ReonVX and Realta. The primary differences: the Realta will scale to 2560x1600p, can handle less common cadences such as 6:4 and 8:7, and supports noise reduction on HD signals, whereas the ReonVX is limited to 1920x1080p and only supports noise and block reduction on SD.

When properly implemented, FLI2030's SD deinterlace is better than the FLI812x in the 605-805. The FLI812x in the 605-805 has a built-in 8-bit converter to do the analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion for s-video, composite, and component sources, whereas the FLI2310 does not. The FLI2310 requires a separate analog-to-digital (A/D) converter.

As far as I can tell, the 3808/4308 and 875/905 are using the same Analog Devices' 216MHz NSV ICs to do analog-to-digital conversion for s-video, composite, and component sources. This is an upgrade over the integrated Faroudja 8-bit A/D conversion found in the FLI812x (used in the 605-805).

In their response, Denon said:
That comment makes absolutely no sense because Denon is not using the Faroudja to convert analog to digital in the 3808/4308. That's what Onkyo is doing in the 605-805. The approach taken for converting analog sources on the 875/905 and 3808/4308 -- using a dedicated A/D circuit from Analog Devices -- is much preferred.

I would not expect the Faroudja to offer comparable performance, but worse case, you can disable it and use pass-through mode. As always, I would wait for reviews, comparisons, and test results before spending $$$$ on a receiver.

Cnet commented on the 605's Faroudja processing in their review.
Hi,
Thank you so much for the details on both 4308 and 905. I don't know if anyone has posted the following questions or not, but it will be new to me and I hope that you can help me with the answers or point me to a thread.

1/ How do you compare the upscaler in 905 Vs the Pioneer Elite customer ASIC Vs a graphics Card (mid-end) on PC ?


thanks.

notforlife

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

another item of difference is noted in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post11388031

read item 5
regarding assigning inputs

Jay L

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

BFDTV or anyone who can help answer this question.

You seem to be as knowledgable about this technology as anyone posting on these threads so here is the question. I keep my receivers for 10 years so I am getting one shot at this AVR upgrade and want to get it right, even if it means spending a little more money (not twice as much as with the Denon 5308) or waiting a few more months. I have a Panasonic Plasma (1080i) and a lot of SD DVDs which I currently play through a Panasonic S97 which does a decent job of upcoverting although I do get noticable macroblocking but no one in the house except me notices. I have HD Directv, no game machines and want to upscale SD broadcast and DVDs. I want Internet and HD radio. I have Paradigm speakers (so you get a basic idea of the type of system I have). I wisht to connect my 2 sources via HDMI plus have room for 1 or 2 more. Here are the forums I visited:

Onkyo 905: Features sound great, sounds like there are still software bugs and I don't know Onkyo's track record for software updates. Impressed with reviews of the Ultra THX audio and know the REON chip has great capability if they can make it work correctly.

Denon 4308ci: Denon has had a long standing reputation for audio qualities. Concerned about the FLI chip. Don't want the same macroblocking issues but do plan to upscale from 480 on the DVD player to 1080i or 720p. Would rather have a slightly less than state of the art upscaling/deinterlacing if it results the a lot less hassles. If my wife can't work this equipment (and she still hasn't figured out how to hold the Harmony remote correctly to have it turn off both the STB and TV - I don't know how many times I've walked into the room and the TV is on with no picture.).

Yamaha 3800: Many people like the audio section of Yamaha but I hear it has no upconverting from HDMI sources and what's the deal with this ABT chip?

Pioneer VSX 94TXH: Comments same as Yamaha except it has the FLI chip.

Any others I should be looking at. Price range $1500 - $2000.

Any help would be appreciated.

soundman11

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

i am also torn between these two, any links to pro reviews?

JC7727

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I did do a quick search but could not find this anywhere so hope you don't mind me posting this question here (found both these compared to Denon models).

I am interested in the Onkyo 905 vs the Onkyo 875

From what I can see they are basically the same but the 905 has a few extras like:

Network connection
2 HDMI outputs
Gold Plated Banana plugs

I am looking to use this primarily as a Pre-Amp for a Blu-Ray setup via PS3 initially (as a Onkyo PrePro 885 is not available in Europe as far as I can find).

Both have pre-outs so this would give me what I am looking for.

btw, In my current setup I have a Denon POA-T2 & T3 amps rated at 200watts per channel. The T3 is used to bi-amp the front 3 speakers using A+B (and this bi-amp config is not available from the internal amps except for the 10channel Denon but this is too old now, and the new versions are a bit steeply priced). Speakers are B&W 600 series around 5+ years old.

The obvious reason to consider the 875 over the 905 is the price. Here in Switzerland the retail prices are: TX-NR 905 E 3499chf (2490chf on Web but availability questionable till you reach the 2900 price range) and TX-SR875 E 2599chf (1865chf on Web also limited availibility till you reach the 2200 price range). Web prices from www.toppreise.ch

Any input would be gratefully recieved. I am considering waiting till next year to make the Audio upgrade but this would mean buying a HDMI switch to tide me over. It would however be nice to upgrade the audio to HD as well as the video.

szhjcn

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

From another thread they noted the differences between the Onkyo 875 and 905 as such:

-905 adds an extra HDMI output, USB port, Ethernet Port and associated network music playback capabilities
-905 has a superior power supply that may run cooler
-Audio quality is more or less the same


Hope this helps
VETMANSH

VETMANSHU

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Great, thanks for the feedback. As I will probably just be using this as a pre-amp, then I assume the power supplies will not be driven that hard as the amps will be unused.

I assume there is no problem with using a unit in this way i.e. not to use the internal power amps?

This is in a dedicated Cinema room in the basement with no windows and^it not not somewhere I would listen to music from so the network connection and USB would probably never be used. I assume however Firmware upgrades can be made via the RS232?

szhjcn

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

bump, I really only want a reciver for the sound. I am not going to use it for video upconversion. My tv already does a great job with that. I am leaning toward the 4308

JC7727

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Just got the november issue of What HiFI from UK which has a "mini" review of the 4308ci.

The verdict:

1. good for HT, but passable on 2 Channel HiFi
2. apart from the networking, your're better of with the 875 (it has the Reon)

Looks like I'll have to wait a bit more......

jarac

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

In these units - does the Internet setup allow for PPPoE connections?
(I have to register to local serviceprovider with every device I want an Internetconnection.)

So can I somehow enter these connection details into the reciever?
(Or is there an switch&firewall that could be programmed for outside connection like this and then it allows an inside own network?)

Jeje2

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

The 5308 will be using the Realta chip set. The Onkyo's use the Dunbed down Reon chip set.

john barlow

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Can you do a 9.1 setup with the onkyo, surrounds A+B? The denons share one amp for two sepakers with this setup, can the onkyo do this?

JC7727

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

The Denon 3808 does A+B surrounds. I'm not sure about the 4308, but since it's a step up, I would imagine it does. And, if audio quality is your prime concern, I do not think you will go wrong by choosing Denon. I would.

garypen

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Yea 3808 looks like the winner, I dont really need the extra features of the 4308. My old denon 4802 also does surrounds A+B, I dont know if any other recievers do this like the denon.

JC7727

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

If you compare the prices of the Denon 4308 (4200chf) and the Onkyo 905 (2700chf) then they are not an even match (these are not hte retail prices, but the prices available on the Web from toppreise.ch). Price wise, the 3808 (2750chf) is more comparable with the 905

I've always been a Denon fan but I think the Onkyo has the 3808 licked!! Anyone able to confirm or dispute this? maybe I'll check for a 3808 / 905 thread.

szhjcn

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by szhjcn
I've always been a Denon fan but I think the Onkyo has the 3808 licked!! Anyone able to confirm or dispute this? maybe I'll check for a 3808 / 905 thread.
I too am trying to decide between the 905 and the 3808. Other threads I've come across are either 4308 vs 905 or 3808 vs 875. I'm reluctant to start a new thread as so much would probably be repeated.

I want upscaling that'll make a difference (from DVDs and lots of DivXs/XVids played from my PC), and both excellent music and cinema sound. Networking, or at least PC connectivity, is also a must as I will be connecting to a media PC for music (MP3s mostly).

JohnMK

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Add me to the list of the 905 vs 3808 buyers.

From what I can see is that between the 2...
1. 905 has more power and weight(not necessarily a huge benefit).
2. both can be used for networking.
3. 905 obviously uses the reon(which is useless if you cable box cant pass through native resolutions--which is the case with dish's 622).
4. denon comes with 2 remotes.
5. denon's osd and menu display overlays over the video....i dont think the 905 does that.
6. denon has 1 hdmi out...the 905 has 2.
7. denon doesnt have hd radio...the 905 does.
8. denon's are easier to apply firmware updates to.

now the not so obvious differences....i dont know if they mean anything...
1. support for HD IVTC---the denon doesnt have it???
2. assignable inputs???? are there some differences?
3. impact with hdmi passthrough--if there is any??
4. THX certification---if that means anything?
5. DTS decoding...if there is a "actual" difference there?

kktk

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMK
I too am trying to decide between the 905 and the 3808. Other threads I've come across are either 4308 vs 905 or 3808 vs 875. I'm reluctant to start a new thread as so much would probably be repeated.

I want upscaling that'll make a difference (from DVDs and lots of DivXs/XVids played from my PC), and both excellent music and cinema sound. Networking, or at least PC connectivity, is also a must as I will be connecting to a media PC for music (MP3s mostly).
Disclaimer: I own the 3808.

The Onkyo SR805 / SR875 / SR905 all produce noticeably better sound quality than the Denon AVR-3808ci. The video processing on the 3808ci (supposedly the same as 4308ci) is not in the same league with the Onkyo SR875/SR905 with the latest firmware. I have not compared the Denon AVR-4308ci.

So why did I return the Onkyo and buy the Denon? Two reasons: (1) audio latency and (2) format switching delays.

If you do a lot of gaming, chances are you will notice the audio latency on the Onkyos pretty quick. You aren't likely to notice it on HD-DVDs or Blu-ray disks, but it does put slightly out of sync television programming completely out of sync, making it unwatchable. I am very sensitive to out-of-sync audio, so this was the dealbreaker for me.

The format switching delay is an extra ~2 second delay without sound when switching between different audio formats (such DD2.0 and DD5.1). You see this when some television channels switch from DD2.0 for commercials to DD5.1 for the program. This means you miss the first second or so of some programs after a commercial break. This was an annoyance that the Denon does not exhibit.

If you can live with the above "limitations," and the high level of heat dissipation (it's designed that way) on the Onkyo, then I do not think you will regret choosing the Onkyo 875/905 over the 3808ci. Those "limitations" did bother me, so I was willing to sacrifice some audio quality and picture quality with the Denon 3808ci. Again, I did not compare the 4308ci.

bfdtv

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

bfdtv----of the questions i had listed....would you be able to shed some light on any of it?

i agree that with the reon....the up converting is a huge plus for the onkyo...but as i am finding out(from some other threads) that the dish 622 does not let me set my output to native--which means the scaling is being done at the cable box....rendering my reon useless(at least for satellite watching).....

the audio delay i did not experience in the denon either....and i am almost convinced to go back to the denon.

disclaimer : i did sample both receivers in my house for a short time...just wish i knew how to do some extensive tests to prove things one way or the other.

kktk

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMK
I too am trying to decide between the 905 and the 3808. Other threads I've come across are either 4308 vs 905 or 3808 vs 875. I'm reluctant to start a new thread as so much would probably be repeated.

I want upscaling that'll make a difference (from DVDs and lots of DivXs/XVids played from my PC), and both excellent music and cinema sound. Networking, or at least PC connectivity, is also a must as I will be connecting to a media PC for music (MP3s mostly).
Hi,
I was originally doing a comparison 4308/905/3800, but went finally for a 3808.
I wrote a small comparison of this originally in Finnish to our local DVDpalza forums, but later translated most of it - my translated writing is found here.

If you have other questions - I can try to help, but no promicies given

Jeje2

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by kktk
now the not so obvious differences....i dont know if they mean anything...
1. support for HD IVTC---the denon doesnt have it???
That's correct, it doesn't. This is unfortunate for 1080i television viewing, but it doesn't matter for 1080p from a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player.

If you've got a TV with a good video processor -- like a Pioneer KURO -- then just use passthrough mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kktk
2. assignable inputs???? are there some differences?
Onkyo provides a few more options here, such as the ability to set a default surround mode per input. The Denon remembers your last setting for each surround type, but not per input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kktk
3. impact with hdmi passthrough--if there is any??
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kktk
4. THX certification---if that means anything?
The amp section on the Onkyo is more capable than the Denon's, which is probably the main reason. That's probably also the reason why it runs so hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kktk
5. DTS decoding...if there is a "actual" difference there?
No.

As I noted above, the Onkyo delivers higher performance for both audio and video. The only area where the Denon really surpasses the Onkyo is the GUI. Unfortunately, the Onkyos suffer from (1) audio latency and (2) format switching delays. These were "deal breakers" for me. The Onkyo also dissipates a significant amount of heat compared to the Denon.

bfdtv

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by kktk
now the not so obvious differences....i dont know if they mean anything...
1. support for HD IVTC---the denon doesnt have it???
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv
That's correct, it doesn't. This is unfortunate for 1080i television viewing, but it doesn't matter for 1080p from a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player.

If you've got a TV with a good video processor -- like a Pioneer KURO -- then just use passthrough mode.
What does that mean? Sorry I am new to this.
Why is that bad for 1080i viewing...and why would using passthrough help in this situation...I use the 50pz700u.

kktk

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

In answer to some earlier posts:

On the Onkyo - it does get hot, but it's not the amps, but the Reon processor itself. No one has reported a problem with it, just that it does get hot. The temperature controlled fans are reported to be very quiet.

Both the Denon and Onkyo have had their share of problems, but most issues have been fixed with the latest firmware updates. Seems like Denon's have had major bugs and delivered many updates to fix them over the last few months. Onkyo has only one update, to fix a black level issue and add additional video controls for the Reon (not in the 905 manual). The Denon update process works through the Ethernet connection - a very slick arrangement, while the Onkyo uses the RS-232 connection to a PC which could be less than ideal for some.


Along the way I made this chart of all the features and specifications to compare between the 905 and the 4308. Features or specs that are better than the other are highlighted. For those considering a lower cost solution, I also compared the 875 and the 3808.

http://www.osfiles.com/zzz/receiver_...vs_4308CI.html
http://www.osfiles.com/zzz/receiver_...vs_3808CI.html

Lastly this may help in comparing between the Onkyo 905, 875 and 805:

http://www.osfiles.com/zzz/receiver_compare_onkyo.html

I've tried to be a fair minded when I created these as it's far from clear that one is better than the other. Each has some really great features. Clearly the price-performance ratio has taken a major step up from existing receivers.

At the bottom of each page is a set of links to manuals, product pages, and other information that may be useful.

I've been looking at both the Denon 4308 and the Onkyo 905 for about 5 months now. I finally decided to get the 905 (it shipped out today), as it suits my needs slightly better and it has a nice price advantage. Both seem like great receivers. Just be aware the Onkyo 905 is still hard to get with most vendors having a backlog of orders.

vcor

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcor
<snip>
Along the way I made this chart of all the features and specifications to compare between the 905 and the 4308. <snip>
Wow, thanks for that! I've been compiling a spreadsheet of my own for exactly this comparison and now all of the work is done for me!! Much appreciated although it's still a tough call.

FX

quarlo

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I finally got my 905 and have been using it for about a week. I've been quite happy with it. I did have to upgrade it to the current version (rather easy - see other posts on how to do this for version under v1.05). Sounds great and the video also looks great.

I agree it's a hard choice between the Denon and the Onkyo. It just depends on what features are more important to you and your price sensitivity. They each have some really cool features and I wish there was a unit with the best from each, but that's crazy talk! Anyway - as you look thourgh the forums, it seems most users are very happy with their choice (Denon or Onkyo).

vcor

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Thanks Vcor for the good comparison. I too have been reviewing all the posts on the 875/905 and 3808/4308. Its a tough choice, as I have Onkyo TX-DS898 now and the audio is excellent. Its just time for me to upgrade. Have you noticed any audio latency on the 905? Some on Onkyo forum say yes, and others say its just the settings. Seems like more say its the processor.

kevinmoran77

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinmoran77
Thanks Vcor for the good comparison. I too have been reviewing all the posts on the 875/905 and 3808/4308. Its a tough choice, as I have Onkyo TX-DS898 now and the audio is excellent. Its just time for me to upgrade. Have you noticed any audio latency on the 905? Some on Onkyo forum say yes, and others say its just the settings. Seems like more say its the processor.
I've not seen any audio latency. I've also not tweaked any of the delay adjustments, but I do have the "lip sync" option enabled over HDMI. It may be the users reporting the problem have a display that also adds significant video delay and/or doesn't support HDMI lip sync (a HDMI v1.3 feature that my display does have).

Most of my viewing is with HD via Direct TV (1080i) which goes through the receiver and upconverts to 1080p. My HD/Blu-ray DVD bypasses the receiver due to a bug in the PC driver (nothing to do with the receiver). I doubt I'll have any issue once the driver is fixed going through the receiver as there will be even less work for the receiver using 1080p from the PC.

vcor

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Does the Integra/0nkyo pre-amps have an HDMI audio lip sync option? Has that improved the audio latency error some have noticed?

Or do all components in the chain have to have HDMI 1.3a lip synching capabilities in the chain for it to work properly?

Dan

Dan Hitchman

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman
Does the Integra/0nkyo pre-amps have an HDMI audio lip sync option? Has that improved the audio latency error some have noticed?

Or do all components in the chain have to have HDMI 1.3a lip synching capabilities in the chain for it to work properly?

Dan
Yes, all new Onkyo's support HDMI lip synch. It only works if your television supports it. It doesn't fix synchronization problems if the audio lags behind the video. When I enable it with my Pioneer TV, it sets the A/V Synch value to 32ms. I have it disabled so I can manually set A/V Synch to 0.

kplex

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

From the pure audio standpoint and from the practical application both receivers in typical room conditions Denon 4308 is missing one future which for me is a deal-breaker.
This is possibility to manual Equalizae frequency for subwoofer.
I like settings made by Audyssey EQ, but also like to have possibility to manual correct those frequencies especially for subwoofer.

Onkyo 905 has dedicated regulations for subwoofer: 25Hz, 40Hz, 63Hz, 100Hz and 160Hz. Denon does not. In my room 60Hz frequency is highly boosted, so such manual correction is very important.

Milimetr

Milimetr

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milimetr
From the pure audio standpoint and from the practical application both receivers in typical room conditions Denon 4308 is missing one future which for me is a deal-breaker.
This is possibility to manual Equalizae frequency for subwoofer.
I like settings made by Audyssey EQ, but also like to have possibility to manual correct those frequencies especially for subwoofer.

Onkyo 905 has dedicated regulations for subwoofer: 25Hz, 40Hz, 63Hz, 100Hz and 160Hz. Denon does not. In my room 60Hz frequency is highly boosted, so such manual correction is very important.

Milimetr
Well - take a look at the Yamaha RX-V3800 - it really beats both of these when it comes to EQ. Adjustable fq, amplification and Q-value. Both Denon and Onkyo should imho take a good look at Yamahas EQ.


For me the problem is a very narrow steep, +15dB, peak at 43Hz - with low ends at both sides quite close - So I have a BFD for my sub as Denon can't fix just my problem.

And in the end I chose Denon instead of Onkyo based on sound quality - not pure numbers.

Jeje2

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeje2
Well - take a look at the Yamaha RX-V3800 - it really beats both of these when it comes to EQ. Adjustable fq, amplification and Q-value. Both Denon and Onkyo should imho take a good look at Yamahas EQ.


For me the problem is a very narrow steep, +15dB, peak at 43Hz - with low ends at both sides quite close - So I have a BFD for my sub as Denon can't fix just my problem.

And in the end I chose Denon instead of Onkyo based on sound quality - not pure numbers.
It's too bad Yamaha doesn't have a 4800 model that competes directly with the feature set of these other receivers.

Jay_Davis

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

I want the Denon 4308ci or Onkyo 905 to go with my Panasonic PF65Uk commercial Plasma and either the Panasonic BD30 (chip?) Bluray or Samsung combo player UP5000 (Reon chip) I will watch some SD TV and HD TV from a comcast cable box, and regular and bluray DVD's. I also want it to play my Ipod and be able to send pictures and hopefully home movies from my computer.

With this Panasonic PF10UK, does the chip in the receiver make a difference? I tried to find out what video chip is in the Panasonic plasma, but could not find it.

If music is not a big deal, what would you get? Thanks for your help, Bob Hanson

BOB HAN

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB HAN
I want the Denon 4308ci or Onkyo 905 to go with my Panasonic PF65Uk commercial Plasma and either the Panasonic BD30 (chip?) Bluray or Samsung combo player UP5000 (Reon chip) I will watch some SD TV and HD TV from a comcast cable box, and regular and bluray DVD's. I also want it to play my Ipod and be able to send pictures and hopefully home movies from my computer.

With this Panasonic PF10UK, does the chip in the receiver make a difference? I tried to find out what video chip is in the Panasonic plasma, but could not find it.

If music is not a big deal, what would you get? Thanks for your help, Bob Hanson
I have the Denon 3808 and I had the Onkyo 905 for a few weeks also. I like more the sound of the 3808 . The Onkyo have more strong mid bass , more power and better video upconversion but in my opinion the Denon have more detailed sound, more clear and natural dialogue, and a very clean deep subwoofer bass . The HI-FI News made a review on the November issue of the 3808 and in the December issue made a review of the 4308 . If you see the bench test of the 4308 and the 3808 you will see that both receivers gave basically the same power and distortion . In my opinion the advantages of the 4308 over the 3808 are the wireless lan, the Advanced AL24 Processing of the 4808 over the AL24 Processing Plus of the 3808 and the HD radio. Some advantages of the Denon 3808 over the Onkyo 905 are: Better HDMI handshaking, less heat, GUI , Web setup (you can adjust all the parameters with your laptop or PC), internet firmware update, a lot of more options in the setup menu like individual speakers settings for stereo and direct , Audessey EQ corrections graphics, individual video upconversion option for each source, a internet Denon Radio server with hundred of good quality radio stations versus the Onkyo 905 you need enter manual the internet address for each station for a maximum of 20 stations and found yourself the radio stations in the internet and others that I don't remember at this moment. The only option that I saw in the Onkyo 905 that don't have the Denon is a EQ for the subwoofer.

fergraz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

When I was auditioning Klipsch RF-83 speakers, I listened to them with both the Onkyo 905 and Denon 3808 as well as Yamaha 3800.
I presume the Denon 4808 has a sound similar to the Denon 3808.

In my personal experience from this listening test, I would stay away from the Denon receivers.

Both the Onkyo 905 and Yamaha 3800, produced a very clean, detailed and dynamic sound.

When I listened to the RF-83s with the Denon 3808, I was shocked at how the detail and the dynamics disapeared from the sound. It was lifeless and almost as if someone had put a blanket over the speakers.

I can't explain it any better than this and it was a shock to me as I have heard and read good things about Denon receivers.

It is also possible that if you have low efficiency speakers that do not produce detailed sound, you may not hear the difference.

Dionyz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz
When I was auditioning Klipsch RF-83 speakers, I listened to them with both the Onkyo 905 and Denon 3808 as well as Yamaha 3800.
I presume the Denon 4808 has a sound similar to the Denon 3808.

In my personal experience from this listening test, I would stay away from the Denon receivers.

Both the Onkyo 905 and Yamaha 3800, produced a very clean, detailed and dynamic sound.

When I listened to the RF-83s with the Denon 3808, I was shocked at how the detail and the dynamics disapeared from the sound. It was lifeless and almost as if someone had put a blanket over the speakers.

I can't explain it any better than this and it was a shock to me as I have heard and read good things about Denon receivers.

It is also possible that if you have low efficiency speakers that do not produce detailed sound, you may not hear the difference.
My speakers are Definitive Technology 2002TL with 92 db of efficiency . I had both receivers in my house for many weeks. Maybe the Denon don't had the correct settings in the showroom. This receiver have a little more sophisticated and complex setup than the Onkyo or maybe the Onkyo and Yamaha matching better with this particular speakers but remember, this of sound quality is subjective. If your perception of detailed and dynamic are highlight the highs and the bass maybe Onkyo or Yamaha will be the better receivers. But is you listen how natural sound the voice of the people, a piano, a sax, a acoustic guitar, a conga or a gun shot maybe the Denon will be the winner.

fergraz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

The Denon was properly set up. I also made sure that the receiver was feeding the speakers directly as were the Yamaha and Onkyo.

The acoustic guitar, voice, piano, sax, and especially conga and gun shot were orders of magnitude better with the Onkyo than the Denon.

With the Onkyo for example I could hear the reverberation of the string of the acoustic guitar which just was not as clear with the Denon.

Voices on the Onkyo had incredible clarity - listening to Sade you could hear the her breath and slight imperfections.

Congas were not even comparable. With the Onkyo they were clear and dynamic while with the Denon they lacked dynamics and sounded muffled.

While I agree with you 100% that sound quality is subjective, I can't stress enough, that the clarity and detail that the Klipsch RF-83s have bring out details that many other speakers just are not able to capture. I am familiar with Definitive Technology speakers and can understand why you would not perceive some of the diferences. While they are a good speaker, they are just not in the same class as the Klipsch. I flipped to them when doing the audition for the RF-83, however, they just did not have the detail and clarity, so they were eliminated in about 30 seconds. Mirage speakers fared even worse - very dead sounding.

Thus it is very likely that if I had actually done the receiver comparison with the Def Tech speakers, I might not have heard any significant diference in the receivers.

Dionyz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz
The Denon was properly set up. I also made sure that the receiver was feeding the speakers directly as were the Yamaha and Onkyo.

The acoustic guitar, voice, piano, sax, and especially conga and gun shot were orders of magnitude better with the Onkyo than the Denon.

With the Onkyo for example I could hear the reverberation of the string of the acoustic guitar which just was not as clear with the Denon.

Voices on the Onkyo had incredible clarity - listening to Sade you could hear the her breath and slight imperfections.

Congas were not even comparable. With the Onkyo they were clear and dynamic while with the Denon they lacked dynamics and sounded muffled.

While I agree with you 100% that sound quality is subjective, I can't stress enough, that the clarity and detail that the Klipsch RF-83s have bring out details that many other speakers just are not able to capture. I am familiar with Definitive Technology speakers and can understand why you would not perceive some of the diferences. While they are a good speaker, they are just not in the same class as the Klipsch. I flipped to them when doing the audition for the RF-83, however, they just did not have the detail and clarity, so they were eliminated in about 30 seconds. Mirage speakers fared even worse - very dead sounding.

Thus it is very likely that if I had actually done the receiver comparison with the Def Tech speakers, I might not have heard any significant diference in the receivers.
OK, you are a audio Guru and I need a over $6,000 speakers setup to hear the quality of the Onkyo 905 that I can't here with my Def Tech $3,000 setup. In the past I had 5 Onkyo receivers, 3 Yamaha 1 Parasound and 1 B&K and this is my first Denon. But read what say the HI-FI News magazine about the sound of the AVR-4308 on they December issue . They used for the review the B&W Nautilus 802 a $6,000 pair speakers winner of many awards. http://bwmedia.keycast.com/download/...e_l2_w0_h0.pdf

fergraz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Fergaz

I am not attempting to disagree with you. All I can say is what I heard.

And again, as we both agree - sound quality is subjective - thus I will not say you are wrong - if one sounds better to you than the other, then that is the right receiver or speaker for you. It may not be the right one for me.

Also, it is not out of the question that the unit I heard was defective.

However, what I hope people take away from our discussion, is that speakers are 10 times more important to the sound quality then the receiver. And for speakers, efficiency is the most important factor, followed by sound quality.

I find it laughable seeing people worrying about watts/channel and spent $1,500+ on a receiver just to pair it with $400/pair inefficient speakers.

It is also laughable seeing people spend thousands on inefficient speaker with a big brand name and not have any dynamics as any reasonably available receiver can't supply sufficient power. There are many very high priced speakers out there with efficiency of 86-88 dB/watt that REALISTICALY need 1000 watts per channel amp to get the dynamics that Klipsch provides with 100 watts/channel receiver.
These low efficiency speakers are simply bad engineering and bad design.
There is absolutely no reason why anyone should manuacture a speaker with less than 92 dB/watt efficiency.

Dionyz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz
Fergaz

I am not attempting to disagree with you. All I can say is what I heard.

And again, as we both agree - sound quality is subjective - thus I will not say you are wrong - if one sounds better to you than the other, then that is the right receiver or speaker for you. It may not be the right one for me.

Also, it is not out of the question that the unit I heard was defective.

However, what I hope people take away from our discussion, is that speakers are 10 times more important to the sound quality then the receiver. And for speakers, efficiency is the most important factor, followed by sound quality.

I find it laughable seeing people worrying about watts/channel and spent $1,500+ on a receiver just to pair it with $400/pair inefficient speakers.

It is also laughable seeing people spend thousands on inefficient speaker with a big brand name and not have any dynamics as any reasonably available receiver can't supply sufficient power. There are many very high priced speakers out there with efficiency of 86-88 dB/watt that REALISTICALY need 1000 watts per channel amp to get the dynamics that Klipsch provides with 100 watts/channel receiver.
These low efficiency speakers are simply bad engineering and bad design.
There is absolutely no reason why anyone should manuacture a speaker with less than 92 dB/watt efficiency.
I disagree with you in one point . The speakers efficiency not is synonymous of sound quality. Many of the best and most expensive speakers of the word have efficiency less than 90 . Klipcsh are a good quality speakers but not are the best speakers of the word. A good sound speaker with high efficiency is good because you need less power to drive they but not necessary a high efficiency speaker have a good sound . Maybe my speakers not are in the same category of your speakers but they won a many good reviews when was new. This is the Sound & Vision review of the Def Tech 2002TL . http://www.definitivetech.com/reviews/BP2002TLSV.pdf

fergraz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by fergraz
I disagree with you in one point . The speakers efficiency not is synonymous of sound quality. Many of the best and most expensive speakers of the word have efficiency less than 90 . Klipcsh are a good quality speakers but not are the best speakers of the word. A good sound speaker with high efficiency is good because you need less power to drive they but not necessary a high efficiency speaker have a good sound . Maybe my speakers not are in the same category of your speakers but they won a many good reviews when was new. This is the Sound & Vision review of the Def Tech 2002TL . http://www.definitivetech.com/reviews/BP2002TLSV.pdf
I agree that efficiency is NOT synonymous with sound quality by any means.
However, you know well that an 86 dB/watt efficiency speaker can hardly get to THX level with a 100 watt/ch receiver and that it is continuously clipping all the dynamic peaks as it does not have any juice left for them.

However, I find it absolutely ridiculous that these most expensive speaker manufacturers don't seem to understand the importance of dynamics, designing these ridiculously low efficiency speakers that need 1000+ watts to drive them with dynamics.

A 200 or 300 watt/ch amps can't drive 86 dB/watt efficiency speakers with good dynamics. And there are not many amps that go above this and most people do not want to be having to pull 30 amps circuits to drive 7 channels of 1000 watts.

If a speaker is going to cost you $1500+ each the manufacturer should have the know how to get the efficiency up to reasonable levels or he should not be calling himself a high end manufacturer (he is high end in price but not high end in design ability.

Also, I am not speaking badly of your Def Techs. They as well as Paradigm are capable of very nice sound. Speakers have to be selected by auditioning, which is always personal taste dependent. I just hope that people audition high quality 95+ dB efficiency speakers, so that they can see what they may be missing with low efficiency speakers.

And you should walk out of any audition where the dealer tries to equalize the speakers, which means he would turn Klipsch speakers way down and you would miss the inherent dynamics that these speakers provide.

Dionyz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz
I agree that efficiency is NOT synonymous with sound quality by any means.
However, you know well that an 86 dB/watt efficiency speaker can hardly get to THX level with a 100 watt/ch receiver and that it is continuously clipping all the dynamic peaks as it does not have any juice left for them.

However, I find it absolutely ridiculous that these most expensive speaker manufacturers don't seem to understand the importance of dynamics, designing these ridiculously low efficiency speakers that need 1000+ watts to drive them with dynamics.

A 200 or 300 watt/ch amps can't drive 86 dB/watt efficiency speakers with good dynamics. And there are not many amps that go above this and most people do not want to be having to pull 30 amps circuits to drive 7 channels of 1000 watts.

If a speaker is going to cost you $1500+ each the manufacturer should have the know how to get the efficiency up to reasonable levels or he should not be calling himself a high end manufacturer (he is high end in price but not high end in design ability.

Also, I am not speaking badly of your Def Techs. They as well as Paradigm are capable of very nice sound. Speakers have to be selected by auditioning, which is always personal taste dependent. I just hope that people audition high quality 95+ dB efficiency speakers, so that they can see what they may be missing with low efficiency speakers.

And you should walk out of any audition where the dealer tries to equalize the speakers, which means he would turn Klipsch speakers way down and you would miss the inherent dynamics that these speakers provide.
Ok, but remember the theme of this post. In this case with less efficiency speakers you need a better receiver with more power to find a good sound, but I said that a less powerful receiver ( the Denon 3808 )have better sound quality (in my opinion) than a more powerful (Onkyo 905) with the same " 92db low efficiency speakers" ( my Def Tech 2002TL )

fergraz

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatter Star
Please forgive me if this has been posted before. This forum gets at least 200 hundred post a day and it's hard to sift through it all so.....I was wondering if anyone else trying to decide between the two models. Is it just the 4308 or 4308ci? Is there a difference? There's about a $500 dollar difference between the two and I think they come out at around the same time(August). I think the 4308 doesn't have the Reon processor, but I am not entirely sure about that. Anyone have a link on the specs? Any feedback would be much appreciated.
not sure this is useful anymore but using the link I mention below you should still be able to find an interesting comparison between the Onkyo 805 / 875 / 905

theosfiles.com/zzz/receiver_compare_onkyo.html

as I never posted anything to this forum I am not allowed to post URLs so if you are interested you will have to copy the above link and paste it into your favourite internet browser. Don't forget to put the regular http:// as well as the www. in front of the above link

please be aware that, at the bottom of the comparison, you will find two additional links where the 875 and the 905 Onkyo models are compared against the Denon models (3808 and 4308)

Of course this is just a technical comparison
Hope this may help

ewise

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
I've not seen any audio latency. I've also not tweaked any of the delay adjustments, but I do have the "lip sync" option enabled over HDMI. It may be the users reporting the problem have a display that also adds significant video delay and/or doesn't support HDMI lip sync (a HDMI v1.3 feature that my display does have).
You might want to take a look at this regarding the source signals affecting the audio/video sync from the 905 thread.

The local CBS engineer was good enough to shine some light on the audio/video delay and broadcasters. Very informative and I suggest you take a look, but 2 pages so see att.

My 905 is not hot in comparison to the HK it replaced. The Onkyo fan is very quiet, a non issue for me.

chris bryant

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego
I almost bought the 4308, but just pre-ordered the 905 with Value Electronics this morning. At $500 less than the 4308, and potentially better video processing, it was an easy choice for me. WiFi was tempting on the 4308, but I doubt I would ever use it.

I'm going to sell my 5803, so I won't be out too much for the new receiver.
Hi yngdiego, I am a 5803A owner and also considering the 905 and was wondering if you are happy with your upgrade. I feel the Denon is still a sweet sounding amp and don't want to lose anything in the audio dept. Did you find an improvement in the musical performance? Also do you find the power of the Onkyo comparable, better, lesser? Thanks on advance.

Marantz-NZ

Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz
I agree that efficiency is NOT synonymous with sound quality by any means.
However, you know well that an 86 dB/watt efficiency speaker can hardly get to THX level with a 100 watt/ch receiver and that it is continuously clipping all the dynamic peaks as it does not have any juice left for them.

However, I find it absolutely ridiculous that these most expensive speaker manufacturers don't seem to understand the importance of dynamics, designing these ridiculously low efficiency speakers that need 1000+ watts to drive them with dynamics.

A 200 or 300 watt/ch amps can't drive 86 dB/watt efficiency speakers with good dynamics. And there are not many amps that go above this and most people do not want to be having to pull 30 amps circuits to drive 7 channels of 1000 watts.

If a speaker is going to cost you $1500+ each the manufacturer should have the know how to get the efficiency up to reasonable levels or he should not be calling himself a high end manufacturer (he is high end in price but not high end in design ability.

Also, I am not speaking badly of your Def Techs. They as well as Paradigm are capable of very nice sound. Speakers have to be selected by auditioning, which is always personal taste dependent. I just hope that people audition high quality 95+ dB efficiency speakers, so that they can see what they may be missing with low efficiency speakers.

And you should walk out of any audition where the dealer tries to equalize the speakers, which means he would turn Klipsch speakers way down and you would miss the inherent dynamics that these speakers provide.
You seem to have a good grasp on this. I have found that lower frequencys
below 120hz tend to use the lions share of amplifier power. Thats why bi-amping is so popular among audio enthusiasts.

Impedence also plays an important role on how much power a given speaker can 'use' from an amp. (4 ohm speakers will typically play louder for a given volume setting than 8 ohm speakers) But your amp must be able to provide the increased power demands or it will clip/shutdown/overheat/distort etc.

I've read that every +3db sound level increase requires double the amp power.
For every +10db (or roughly twice the amount of percieved sound) increase it takes 10 times the power. The relationship between volume and required amplifier power is logarithmic rather than linear.

So the difference in how loud a speaker plays with a given amp is definitly tied to it efficiency. (a speakr rated at 92db with a nominal impedence of 8 ohms will play louder than an 8 ohm speaker rated at 89db with the same amp for a given wattage)


I'm using and external amp to power my woofers. (2 10" woofs per cabinet)
2 cabinets (one for Left and Right channels). The amp is rated at 175 wpc
into 8 ohms, but has an IEF dynamic headroom of 7.3db. (the amp has builtin Capacitors that sent more power during transient peaks, but it will only supply the added power for a second or two before the power drops back
down to normal.)

I'm using Denon AVR-5308 amp (rated at 150wpc @ 8ohms) for midbass, midrange and tweeters in the cabinets.
This seems to allow much louder playback without distortion or clipping.

Question:
Is the denon amp still going to be overloaded due to the 4ohm nominal impedence of the towers upper speakers? (4 ohms at 90db at 1 watt)
I am also wondering if the nominal impedence rating of the upper speakers
is still 4 ohms without the Bass speakers being factored in?

NCoastTweaker

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