Home  |  About  | Last |  Submit  |  Contact
AllQuests.com



Previous Question:  Quadro NVS 450 on Ubuntu 10.04 crashes X no screens  NVIDIA LinuxNext Question:  Possible Iraqi Info Minister committed suicide  General Discussion Board
Question 100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker ( AVS Forum Speakers )
Updated: 2010-08-03 10:46:05 (119)
100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Will 100 dB or higher sound less "painful" on a warm speaker vs. a bright speaker?

Answers: 100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker ( AVS Forum Speakers )
100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Soft dome tweeters for the smooth unfatigue factor. OW1.

My Linns use this tweeter also, it was the deciding factor for a pleasant top end. Wharfdale uses softs as well.

simplemath

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

you do realise that that is close to the pain threshold of any sound don't you?

Raymond Leggs

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Floyd Toole's human testing found most people perfer a high end drop off.

The other often mentioned factor, is the room itself. Some rooms are "bright", so a flat speaker will sound bright in that room.

Also, no matter how flat the speaker is in an anechoic chamber, as soon as you take it out of the box and place it on a stand, or in a corner of the room, it is no longer a flat speaker until you EQ it properly.

MLKstudios

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

"As crazy as Penn is...."


Lol, you have me beat by a mile!! You guys need to realize what MK has in his custom HT room




penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Great stuff MK! A true wall of sound. To quote Cal from DIYAudio - "Only big sounds big"

steve71

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

MK has "a nice rack" too.

MLKstudios

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
What? I can't hear you, can you speak a little louder?

Just kidding. Everytime I click your link in your sig I can't help but feel like

I would love to see the rest of your theater, do you have more pics posted?

And I agree listening position and room dynamics play a role. A smaller room and closer listening position can have a big effect on power and sensivitiy. Someone sitting 17' back in a 20x20 room with 10' ceilings vs someone in a 15x15' room sitting 10' back with 8' ceilings will have different power requirements.
Check out my thread, I just posted new pics.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...016979&page=20

MKtheater

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

As crazy as Penn is, he is right. 100 db's is not loud with proper room and equipment. It takes more power than people think to play loud from the LP. I watch at reference levels all the time and never get fatigued, the system just coasts along at 100 db's.

MKtheater

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater
As crazy as Penn is, he is right. 100 db's is not loud with proper room and equipment. It takes more power than people think to play loud from the LP. I watch at reference levels all the time and never get fatigued, the system just coasts along at 100 db's.
What? I can't hear you, can you speak a little louder?

Just kidding. Everytime I click your link in your sig I can't help but feel like

I would love to see the rest of your theater, do you have more pics posted?

And I agree listening position and room dynamics play a role. A smaller room and closer listening position can have a big effect on power and sensivitiy. Someone sitting 17' back in a 20x20 room with 10' ceilings vs someone in a 15x15' room sitting 10' back with 8' ceilings will have different power requirements.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Low efficiency speakers compress peaks in the signal due to heating of the voice coil. It's like having the dynamic range compression of your receiver turned on.

Good high efficiency speakers will sound much louder on loud passages. Ever notice how massive the sound is in a really good cinema?

And as for the OP questions - look up the Fletcher Munson curve.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves

With this in mind I'd say warm speakers will be more accurate at high volume.

I'm lucky enough to have a digital active crossover with a 28 band digital EQ so when I want to listen really loud (My mains will do around 110db with 1 watt) I can adjust the FR to take into account the Fletcher Munson curve.

I believe the new AV receivers are incorporating a dynamic loudness "button" which does a similar thing.

steve71

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Not really missing anything, I do not know the distortion measurements of your speakers and you are listening a low volumes so all is good....just do not crank it up and think you are listening to clean/clear sound.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
People listening at under 75dB 100% of the time need not read anything here...any old speaker will do just fine in that world
That is not what I am saying. I am saying that I listen to normal dialogue in the 60-65db range typically. That does not account for peaks which could probably reach close to the 85-90db range when listening at normal dialogue levels. And there are some big differences between speakers that have the same sensitivity ratings at that 75db and lower range

I will take some SPL measurements tonight when I watch a movie (I have a couple of Blu-Ray's that I was planning on watching anyway) to see what I normally listen at and will try adjusting up by a good 5-10dbs from normal and will see where peaks are at. I will try and compare a heavy dialogue driven movie vs an action popcorn movie.

I do appreciate your comments. I think you raise some interesting points that I will definitely ponder and research more with regards to speaker design.

I just find it interesting that the majority of bookshelf speakers that I personally gravitate to tend to have a sensitivity rating of 87-89dbs, and those speakers that get highly rated by various users and professional review sites that fall in the $1K and under range (per pair). Examples of speakers that I have listened to very recently are:
- NHT Classic 3
- PSB Image 25
- SVS SCS-01
- Paradigm Mini Monitor
- KEF iq3
- Aperion Intimus 5B
- RBH MC-6C, 616C, RBH 61/SE-R

Speakers that I have not heard that get great reviews:
- Emotiva ERT/ERM series
- Ascend Sierras
- Ascend CBM-170
- Axiom M2, M3, and M22 speakers
- Aperion Intimus 4b and 6b
- Swan bookshelves
- Dynaudio
, etc, etc,

None of the above speakers are rated above 89db's.

As for HT custom installers I can tell you for a fact that a well known company in the Salt Lake area pushes many RBH spekers that are rated 89dbs. And custom installers are not (from what I have seen) going to push internet direct company speakers.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Penngray,

You also have to take into account that when someone's speaker is rated at 87dbs in an anechoic chamber that is not taking into account actual room dynamics and and using multiple speakers vs just one. Using some basic calculators I have found a 87db rated speaker from 12ft away (assuming the speakers are within 4ft of a wall, which mine are) my 90watt per channel receiver (RMS) should be able to deliver up to 105.3dbs at peak. I would say this is probably close to accurate in my own space when I have cranked my receiver up to above normal listening levels. Even if I listened to dialogue at much higher levels than normal (lets say 80db vs 60-65) that should still give my 90w receiver to handle a 20db range peak (this would put it around 100db). But as you mentioned, I may be reaching distortion levels at that point depending upon my speakers, receiver, room, and knowledge of what distortion sounds like at that level. Or am I missing something here?

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
There are speakers that are less sensitive but have flatter freq response and sound much better to me vs the more sensitive speaker. Maybe it is just me, but I prefer the sound of a more neutral speaker vs an overly sensitive and bright speaker.
You do realize that a speaker with flat FR plot is defined as bright speaker Of course sensitivity isnt the end all for speakers, there are crap speakers with high sensitivity but you do not seen professional install putting in sub 90dB speakers in custom HT rooms. Ask some of the experts on here that install in HT room what they would use!!

The problem with everyone going just off FR plots is that its only a fraction of the speaker story. Power Response, Harmonic Distortion curves are extremely important and seldom looked at by anyone just listening to speakers in a demo. Most people demo improperly too but that is a new topic.

I would actually love to never see a simple FR plot again, instead companies should use THD plots since those include the FR and also the distortion measurements. Then Polar response charts would show how bad some speakers are

People listening at under 75dB 100% of the time need not read anything here...any old speaker will do just fine in that world

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db
Fatiguing or not, its still loud and will cause damage. Whether it hurts or not is immaterial.
Again, you keep thinking we are listening past 90dB levels 12 feet back.

Do you realize to even have 85dB levels once in awhile still requirese VERY HIGH SPLs levels @ 1m? Do you also know the distortion curves for most speakers at those levels?

This is the single biggest issue that I think people miss day after day in any audio forum. Well 2nd biggest one outside of wasting $$$ on things that do not improve sound

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Fatiguing or not, its still loud and will cause damage.
Not if listened to for only a few seconds. I believe it is something like 10 minutes at 120 dbs before damage occurs. This varies with frequency as well. Listening at 85 average and 105 peaks during a 2 hour movie will not cause permanent damage. Now, if listening to all the LOTR one after another at reference volume, you may incur damage.

sound dropouts

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

And as I stated in another thread speaker sensitivity is just one aspect to speaker design. There are speakers that are less sensitive but have flatter freq response and sound much better to me vs the more sensitive speaker. Maybe it is just me, but I prefer the sound of a more neutral speaker vs an overly sensitive and bright speaker. If that means I am hearing distortion during peak scenes (even for a second or two) then I guess that is a tradeoff I make for watching the majority of the movie which sounds much better to me with a neutral speaker Luckily there are speakers made for all types of tastes. The very sensitive speaker for those that like to play loud and big, and the more neutral speaker for those that want a more natural sound.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
You guys do not understand what 20dB peaks mean!! Its all about the peaks and not someone playing 100dB levels at all.

If you want 90dB at your listening position and you sit 12 feet away then you need +115dB at the speaker position (LF probably 120+)....um....distortion!!!!

Of course, most people just accept distortion as proper speaker sound Its something that few understand.
I don't listen to movies at a constant 90db's though. During normal dialogue that would be well above shouting levels (normal dialogue happens in the 60db range). I have nothing against people wanting to watch their movies really loud, but I just don't find it enjoyable. When I watch a movie or TV show I prefer to have dialogue at normal volume levels. Like the person was in the room talking to me directly, not shouting at me.

But I understand your point for peaks. Perhaps I am hearing distortion and do not know it with my normal commercial grade speakers. And I have heard some very expensive speakers (at least by my standards, they were $15K a pair). They definitely blew away the speakers that I have now but they should. They cost About $14,700 more apiece.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
I do not think anyone is asking what speakers play 100dBs 24/7

What I have learned recently is that high SPL needs low distortion and you can not get that with average comercial speakers.

100dB - 115dBs distortion free is not fatiguing, 100dB-110dB peaks with distortion is fatiguing. Heck, we havent even touched on the fact that LF can be 120dB!!!

Few people here have heard higher SPL, lower distortion speakers. Its just a different world. Distortion can ring throughout a room and most here would think its the shimmer of the dome Most people also do not realize that the details they think they hear in their speakers during those high SPL peaks is actually full of distortion.
Fatiguing or not, its still loud and will cause damage. Whether it hurts or not is immaterial.

3db

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
I agree here. It is one thing to peak in the 100db range occasionally but listening to music or movies at 100db constant level will result in permanent hearing loss.
You guys do not understand what 20dB peaks mean!! Its all about the peaks and not someone playing 100dB levels at all.

If you want 90dB at your listening position and you sit 12 feet away then you need +115dB at the speaker position (LF probably 120+)....um....distortion!!!!

Of course, most people just accept distortion as proper speaker sound Its something that few understand.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db
No offense but thats like asking..what woudl hurt more, getting run over my a half ton or a hummer? A 100db is painfully loud and will cause permanent hearing loss. No thanks. I'll keep my HT in the mid to high 80s with the occasional peak to the low 90s when I want to listen to something very loud.
I do not think anyone is asking what speakers play 100dBs 24/7

What I have learned recently is that high SPL needs low distortion and you can not get that with average comercial speakers.

100dB - 115dBs distortion free is not fatiguing, 100dB-110dB peaks with distortion is fatiguing. Heck, we havent even touched on the fact that LF can be 120dB!!!

Few people here have heard higher SPL, lower distortion speakers. Its just a different world. Distortion can ring throughout a room and most here would think its the shimmer of the dome Most people also do not realize that the details they think they hear in their speakers during those high SPL peaks is actually full of distortion.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db
No offense but thats like asking..what woudl hurt more, getting run over my a half ton or a hummer? A 100db is painfully loud and will cause permanent hearing loss. No thanks. I'll keep my HT in the mid to high 80s with the occasional peak to the low 90s when I want to listen to something very loud.
I agree here. It is one thing to peak in the 100db range occasionally but listening to music or movies at 100db constant level will result in permanent hearing loss.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

100db should sound less painful on the warmer speaker. 100db is ok... so it prob wont make too much difference, also depends what kind of music your into, the bright speaker may sound louder at lower volumes than a warm speaker at higher volumes. I listen to my paradigm studio 100v3's often at levels over 100db and it seems fine apart from having to send a tweeter for repair but thats another story. Standing next to a high power PA speaker blaring at over 120 db hmmm thats painful.

DL86

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

There is a difference between bright and harsh. Don't confuse high resolution speakers with being too bright or too harsh. Harsh=distortion. Bright to most people probably=tweeter running too hot. Eq can make a bright sounding speaker sound better. But you can't make a warm-neutral speaker have detail-high resolution. The best speakers will seem bright imo. But it's just because they are high resolution and many recordings will sound like crap on them because they are crap recordings. If you want to be blown away high resolution speakers is where it's at. Not warm-neutral.

Zues

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74
Why not do 100 dB on a neutral speaker?
Okay, even if you include a neutral speaker into the mix, the question still stands.

By the way, which speakers do you consider to be neutral?

Kain

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Why not do 100 dB on a neutral speaker?

NIN74

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

No offense but thats like asking..what woudl hurt more, getting run over my a half ton or a hummer? A 100db is painfully loud and will cause permanent hearing loss. No thanks. I'll keep my HT in the mid to high 80s with the occasional peak to the low 90s when I want to listen to something very loud.

3db

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

That depends entirely on your ears. Some speakers are painful even at low volumes!

DogEarz

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Which speakers do you find painful even at low volumes?

Kain

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
make sure you know the calibration correction numbers for the RS meter because its well known the RS meter can be very inaccurate. You also should realize that RS meters may not be accurate enough to pick up split second peaks during movie playback. This means, you actually will not know what your true peaks are.
From what I have read the RS meter can be 1-2db off. I have never read anything stating that the RS meters are "very inaccurate" and would actually like to see some evidence that points to this. Interesting to know about the RS meters also not picking up true peaks, can you point to proof of this somewhere? And what SPL meter would you recommend that is accurate and can capture true peaks?

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

I can see that people are taking my posts personal in this thread so I am done here I never meant to derail this thread.

Cheers to all and happy movie watching, no matter your SPL level...

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater
As crazy as Penn is, he is right. 100 db's is not loud with proper room and equipment. It takes more power than people think to play loud from the LP. I watch at reference levels all the time and never get fatigued, the system just coasts along at 100 db's.

I know what you're saying, but just for clarity, 100dB is 100dB, regardless if it "sounds loud" or not.

whoaru99

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
I am hearing no audible distortion in these ranges with my equipment, and if I can't hear it, well, I can't hear it.
Okay but you are entirely subjective in your test so that does not make your opinion fact, did you read the links to Dr. Geddes research on this? He isnt any audio hack, they guy has true acoustical credentials. Have you read anything from Linkwitz?


Quote:
I am not taking it personal at all. I wanted to determine at what levels you guys are listening at (from your sitting position) to be getting dialogue in the 85db range and peaks above 100. I have no beef with you doing that at all, and I can understand why you would want a sensitive speaker and/or lots of wattage to get there. It makes perfect sense. If somebody came to me and told me they like dialogue in the 80-90 range and peaks at or above 105, I would definitely not recommend my speakers and receiver. They probably would not be happy
Thats fine but I do not care what levels anyone listens at, its all about the science and if people can learn the science they can then think for themselves and make the best decisions based on their individual needs. What you are I do should not matter to anyone else if they know the theories and measurements that are required for the best solutions.

Once they understand what we have posted, they can make a decision on if they need higher end speakers or not.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
I can see that people are taking my posts personal in this thread so I am done here

Cheers to all and happy movie watching, no matter your SPL level...
You are misreading me if you think I was. I just trying to figure out what your intent is. Heck, I thought we have a good exchange so sorry if you feel something is off. I tend to keep off the personal choices, brand choices, etc and repeat the fundamental logic which I believe in the end will help people research speaker choices better....its not about just listening to a pair of speakers.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99
I know what you're saying, but just for clarity, 100dB is 100dB, regardless if it "sounds loud" or not.
Very true but some speakers sound like crap @ 100dB and some sound flawless. Its easier to listen to 100dB peaks from those speakers that do it well then too distortion ringing across the room.

Give a person 30 minutes with distorted speakers @ 100dB and they will beg for it all to stop. Give a person 30 minutes with un-distorted speakers @ 100dB and they will wonder what happened to the time because it was pure joy.

30 minutes @ 100dB once in a blue moon will not make ANYONE go deaf so can we just leave the 100dB will make you go deaf BS at home.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

I get the feeling that people are trying to justify their preferences...and that should not be the intent.

If you like louder levels, I think that is perfectly fine....the same with lower levels. People need to understand what levels are "right" for them.

If we want to talk about hearing damage, that is a different topic and the numbers are well documented.....it doesn't matter if the sounds are distorted or not.

cschang

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Having low distortion, high spl speakers are more dangerous than ones that distort at those levels. They sound great even at dangerous levels BUT watching movies never approach those levels. Peaks reach 105 db's with highs and mids, the bass reaches 115 db's or more depending on how many speakers are reproducing the bass. If I want to go crazy I will turn up the bass(LFE) for some fun.

MKtheater

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
You do realize that a speaker with flat FR plot is defined as bright speaker
It depends on where you measure. Neutral speakers measure ruler flat on-axis but have a slow decrease in total power output at higher frequencies. Flat power response to a couple KHz works great followed by a monotonic decrease at high frequencies.

Shelved up output everywhere will be bright. A big spike in power response at high frequencies will be bright.

Quote:
People listening at under 75dB 100% of the time need not read anything here...any old speaker will do just fine in that world
Using the bedroom TV's on-board speakers my wife often asks me what was said, I usually don't know, and if it's important enough we rewind which is painful on streaming Netflix "watch instantly".

My main system is back on-line, so the little baby one will put a fix to that.

Drew Eckhardt

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt
It depends on where you measure. Neutral speakers measure ruler flat on-axis but have a slow decrease in total power output at higher frequencies. Flat power response to a couple KHz works great followed by a monotonic decrease at high frequencies.

Shelved up output everywhere will be bright. A big spike in power response at high frequencies will be bright.

Great point!

Quote:
Using the bedroom TV's on-board speakers my wife often asks me what was said, I usually don't know, and if it's important enough we rewind which is painful on streaming Netflix "watch instantly".

My main system is back on-line, so the little baby one will put a fix to that.
That could be a speaker thing (obviously TV speakers are pretty low end) but it also could be a room acoustics problem.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
Agreed. Distortion is a reality and higher decibel levels play a huge role. But as I pointed out earlier, there are few bookshelf speakers out there in the $1K and below range that are rated above 90db.
The problem is that efficiency is proportional to the inverse of cabinet size and the inverse of the low-frequency cut-off cubed. An 86dB bookshelf speaker needs to be 2.5 times bigger to get to 90dB. One that goes to 50Hz needs to be 8X bigger than one which reaches only 100Hz or 9dB less efficient at the same size.

A port buys you 3dB worth of efficiency.

Quote:
I would be curious what speakers you would recommend to get the high SPL levels you are talking about at a realistic price (say under $4K a pair).
Earl Geddes sells his Nathan and Abbey assembled for $2200 and $3300 a pair respectively. They're better than 95dB efficient, with the high frequency compression driver padded down from maybe 105dB to mate to the woofer. Power handling to reach 120dB.

24" x 12" x 10" and 29" x 15" x 12" respectively. Bass doesn't go much past 100Hz so you'll need subwoofers.

The HTR triple 8 at $2400 a pair should be fine. Designed by Mark Seaton, coaxial wave guide for high frequencies. 95dB efficient. F3 of 80 Hz. 28"x12"x12. Power handling to reach 120dB.

Note the cabinet sizes since you can't change physics.

Yorkville sells a Danley unity horn with an oblate spheroidal wave guide in the same price and size range; it's supposed to be good.

Apart from his Pluto, Siegfried Linkwitz builds speakers for subjectively realistic output levels noting the Orion's dome tweeter shows "no signs of distress at 20W peak" but for him this means more like 105dB peaks. Much cleaner than consumer market speakers but I'm going to build a set of Geddes/LeJune style high efficiency designs to see where even better directivity and headroom go.

Drew Eckhardt

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
I'm going to build a set of Geddes/LeJune style high efficiency designs
You buying some of Geddes waveguides to do so?? Im very interested in this project. Thanks!

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71
If voices sound like they're shouting when you turn up the volume then you are hearing distortion.
Could it be that you just have it up too darn loud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
Where is the delete button....for the last time guys no one is listening to 110dB constantly. Some of us do not want limitations in our systems, hence we make sure our speakers meet specific requirements.

Although I spent 4 years bartending during school, every weekend we had live bands. Also, My car audio system was also worth more then the car I drove back then, GnR loud was gooooooood!!! 20 years later my ears are just fine. Those links are not meaningful to me and the millions of others who LOVE live rock concerts!!

Some of you sound like old men telling their kids not to sit too close to the TV
You will be deaf soon.

Raymond Leggs

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
You are misreading me if you think I was. I just trying to figure out what your intent is. Heck, I thought we have a good exchange so sorry if you feel something is off. I tend to keep off the personal choices, brand choices, etc and repeat the fundamental logic which I believe in the end will help people research speaker choices better....its not about just listening to a pair of speakers.
My intent was already explained. I felt that this thread was getting derailed since we are now at the point of challenging SPL meter readings on a very unscientific test. In other words the conversation started going nowhere fast. BTW, I did find this info on the RS SPL meters:
Radio Shack SPL Meter Correction Factors-

Quote:
10 Hz +20.5
12.5 Hz +16.5
16 Hz +11.5
20 Hz +7.5
25 Hz +5
31.5 Hz +3
40 Hz +2.5
50 Hz +1.5
63 Hz +1.5
80 Hz +1.5
100 Hz +2
125 Hz +0.5
160 Hz -0.5
200 Hz -0.5
250 Hz +0.5
315 Hz -0.5
400 Hz 0
500 Hz -0.5
630 Hz 0
800 Hz 0
1 kHz 0
1.25 khz 0
1.6 kHz -0.5
2 kHz -1.5
2.5 kHz -1.5
3.15 kHz -1.5
4 kHz -2
5 kHz -2
6.3 kHz -2
8 kHz -2
10 khz -1
12.5 kHz +0.5
16 kHz 0
20 kHz +1
So using those correction factors the RS SPL meters are on par with other professional (ie $1500+) SPL meters.

And to get back to the point I would agree with you and others that if the OP wants high SPL speakers for the 100+db ranges it would make sense to look into some of those speakers that Drew Eckhardt kindly mentioned. I would love to listen to some locally, but I doubt that will happen (I have visited many high end audio stores in my area and you typically get the usual commercial spekers) and I simply do not have $3k+ to spend on speakers right now so I will have to make due with my current speakers.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt
The problem is that efficiency is inversely proportional to both cabinet size and the inverse of the low-frequency cut-off cubed. An 86dB bookshelf speaker needs to be 2.5 times bigger to get to 90dB. One that goes to 50Hz needs to be 8X bigger than one which reaches only 100Hz or 9dB less efficient at the same size.

A port buys you 3dB worth of efficiency.

Earl Geddes sells his Nathan and Abbey assembled for $2200 and $3300 a pair respectively. They're better than 95dB efficient, with the high frequency compression driver padded down from maybe 105dB to mate to the woofer. Power handling to reach 120dB.

24" x 12" x 10" and 29" x 15" x 12" respectively. Bass doesn't go much past 100Hz so you'll need subwoofers.

The HTR triple 8 at $2400 a pair should be fine. Designed by Mark Seaton, coaxial wave guide for high frequencies. 95dB efficient. F3 of 80 Hz. 28"x12"x12. Power handling to reach 120dB.

Note the cabinet sizes since you can't change physics.

Yorkville sells a Danley unity horn with an oblate spheroidal wave guide in the same price and size range; it's supposed to be good.

Apart from his Pluto, Siegfried Linkwitz builds speakers for subjectively realistic output levels noting the Orion's dome tweeter shows "no signs of distress at 20W peak" but for him this means more like 105dB peaks. Much cleaner than consumer market speakers but I'm going to build a set of Geddes/LeJune style high efficiency designs to see where even better directivity and headroom go.
Thanks for the info Drew. I am intrigued by what I have read about those JTR 8's. I would love to listen to a pair.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
You buying some of Geddes waveguides to do so?? Im very interested in this project. Thanks!
Maybe. I like projects with excuses to apply new construction techniques where past examples have included compound angles and router joinery.

Fiber glassing is a good candidate since a wave guide only requires the initial male plug - maybe stacked MDF/masonite circles intersecting the target curve where its diameter is least, covered in Bondo. 30ppi reticulated foam is available to make Earl's plugs. Otherwise it's order up three of Earl's wave guides.

Bigger radiuses than I can get with my router table might be interesting too.

Probably B&C DE250-8 compression driver and AE mid-bass of some flavor because of people's good experiences. I'm partial to active cross-overs. Not softit mounted because I've been moving too much. No idea if mid-bass is sealed, dipole, or cardioid. No idea whether it's 10, 12, or 15". No idea if it's a 2-way or 3-way with sealed mid crossed to dipole or cardioid woofers where DI reaches 4.8dB; a couple of floor mounted woofers can be 100dB sensitive at the top of their range.

Still at the thought stages - I need to finish the bedroom system woofer enclosures first. I'm curious enough that it's the next project ahead of making a set of wooden Linkwitz Pluto enclosures which is an excuse to make something with birdsmouth joints and a router lathe.

Drew Eckhardt

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

The new triple 8's are improved from the specs above. I owned the original triple 8's. I was probably one of the first nondealers to own a full 7.0 JTR system.

MKtheater

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

MK

Just how high is the dba range in that room because at the EMPIRE last Thursday it was up at 100dba on those phasers STAR TREK and that was Just Bloody Loud JBL and that was at the front and centre row which is 26 feet away from the screen or a bit more because I haven’t taken into account the height diagonal angle which would be 30 feet plus.

Around middle it would drop off, which was about 25 meters away from the screen, yet the HF is pointing at the middle of the EMPIRE and those phasers where flipping almost painfully loud and yet a bit exaggerated because laser doesn’t really emit sound much less 100dba or higher if you where crazy to be within 1 meter without earplugs it would bend your ears!

JBLsound4645

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

I don't think anyone here is saying they listen to 100dB (or 80dB or 90dB) constantly. You would have to be listening to pink noise.

But, having speakers that can handle those "occasional" peaks over 100dB without distortion is the key to good dynamics. They allow you to listen at a higher level without fatigue.

My JBL's sound good loud, and really good really loud. I love to crank it on the opening trumpets and when the THX trailer does its thing. While watching I keep my finger on the volume due to the neighbors.

MLKstudios

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Is it a good idea to always buy speakers with high sensitivity 90+ ? I've seen some expensive speakers that are < 90 sensitivity and I am not sure why..

jurio

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs
Could it be that you just have it up too darn loud?
If that were the case then lowering the volume would make the actors sound like they were whispering. Which of course it doesn't.

Whispering, normal spoken voice, and shouting are three vastly different signals and a speaker shouldn't turn one into the other at the twist of the volume knob.

steve71

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

From a link at the Amp section (regarding PL IIz)...

"Overall IMAX system power varies depending on the size of the room, but it is typically in the range of 12,500 watts. 'The power is not there for the loudness,' McCroskey says. 'It's there for clarity and freedom from distortion.'"

MLKstudios

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLKstudios
From a link at the Amp section (regarding PL IIz)...

"Overall IMAX system power varies depending on the size of the room, but it is typically in the range of 12,500 watts. 'The power is not there for the loudness,' McCroskey says. 'It's there for clarity and freedom from distortion.'"
So true, it takes more than just efficient speakers. You have to have plenty of clean power to back them up.
Unless one has really efficient, clean sounding horns, a 90w receiver will distort if run over 100db, for any length of time, in a good size room. Its going to be right up against its max.

If you add a 220~400w amp to at least the main L/R speakers then you have plenty of reserve power, and when those 100+ peaks hit, its no sweat/no distortion.

I was just watching Shooter, and I was running at just over 100db peaks, with dialog at around 70~75db, not hard on the ears at all. And best of all with the VC set to only -17db so I could have gone alot higher, and have, and still had plenty of headroom.

4DHD

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
and I was running at just over 100db peaks
Don't you know you are going loose your hearing!!!

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurio
Is it a good idea to always buy speakers with high sensitivity 90+ ? I've seen some expensive speakers that are < 90 sensitivity and I am not sure why..
When the application is a custom Home Theater room and seating could be 15 to 20 feet back and movies have 20dB peaks its very important to pick the right speakers. Its a simple numbers game to me, I do not need to travel around listening to speakers to know which ones work in a custom HT room.


< 90db speakers are nice to sit 8 feet from and listen to music at 60 or 70 dBs but when its time to impress friends and family I wouldnt be caught dead with inadequate speakers.

Yes, there are $100K speakers that are < 90dBs...Lets just say $$$ does not predict THX required levels at all.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71
If that were the case then lowering the volume would make the actors sound like they were whispering. Which of course it doesn't.

Whispering, normal spoken voice, and shouting are three vastly different signals and a speaker shouldn't turn one into the other at the twist of the volume knob.
The facts are that normal dialogue occurs in the 60db range. We know this. This is not some made up number. So, if you are listening to dialogue at its "normal" range your SPL meter should read around 60db at your listening position.

If you are listening to dialogue in the 70db range you are listening 10db above normal. If you are listening in the 80db range you are listening 20db above normal, etc.

Is this bad? No. Are you going to go deaf? No. It just means you are listening to dialogue above normal conditions. That is all. For people that are sensitive to volume levels and are accustomed to listening to dialogue in the 60db range, this is their comfort zone. Is this wrong? No. Does this mean they cannot hear dialogue? No.

So when I said that it felt like people were "shouting at me" when I was listening to dialogue 10db above normal that was my experience. Maybe I have sensitive hearing. Maybe I am just accustomed to listening to dialogue over the last 10 years or so in a 5.1 setup in this range. I don't know.

I know plenty of people who watch movies at least 10db above what I do. That is what they are comfortable with and that is their comfort zone. Simple as that.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurio
Is it a good idea to always buy speakers with high sensitivity 90+ ?
Generally.

You're building a system around a given room + listening are combination and are trying to achieve a given target SPL in that area with an acceptable distortion level.

That target might be 105 dB for reference level peaks for DTS sound tracks. If you have a long critical distance because it's a big open floor plan and end up 6dB below what you have at the speakers you need 111dB from the speakers.

With 86dB of sensitivity simple theory would suggest 300W to get there but the real world is worse because we don't listen to single frequencies. With a passive speaker when the amplifier needs to produce two tones at different frequencies each one can have only half the voltage. Each signal is 6dB below what you can get out of a single tone and they add uncorrelated so the volume is 3dB lower. Now you need 600W to get there.

This all assumes that you don't get any power compression, which is also likely to cause a shift in spectrum because the voice coils are going to heat at different rates.

Quote:
I've seen some expensive speakers that are < 90 sensitivity and I am not sure why..
People listen to music at modest volumes and would rather have low bass in a smaller cabinet than higher efficiency with either a large cabinet or higher frequency cut-off.

Drew Eckhardt

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
The facts are that normal dialogue occurs in the 60db range. We know this. This is not some made up number. So, if you are listening to dialogue at its "normal" range your SPL meter should read around 60db at your listening position.

If you are listening to dialogue in the 70db range you are listening 10db above normal. If you are listening in the 80db range you are listening 20db above normal, etc.

Is this bad? No. Are you going to go deaf? No. It just means you are listening to dialogue above normal conditions. That is all. For people that are sensitive to volume levels and are accustomed to listening to dialogue in the 60db range, this is their comfort zone. Is this wrong? No. Does this mean they cannot hear dialogue? No.

So when I said that it felt like people were "shouting at me" when I was listening to dialogue 10db above normal that was my experience. Maybe I have sensitive hearing. Maybe I am just accustomed to listening to dialogue over the last 10 years or so in a 5.1 setup in this range. I don't know.

I know plenty of people who watch movies at least 10db above what I do. That is what they are comfortable with and that is their comfort zone. Simple as that.
I don't debate any of that, but if your speakers make spoken dialogue sound like shouting (ie harsh or aggressive) at 70db, but not at 60db then there is something wrong.

If however it sounds just the same and perfectly comfortable, but just louder then it's all good. Maybe you're just describing this as "shouting"

steve71

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
Don't you know you are going loose your hearing!!!
Well, it hasn't gotten any worse in recent times. Probably did a lot more damage working construction for 4 decades, firing most weapons known to US military, and playing with explosives than listening to 2 hour movies with occassional peaks over 100.

4DHD

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurio
Is it a good idea to always buy speakers with high sensitivity 90+ ?
As others have stated that depends on many factors:
- Your room size and dynamics
- Your receiver/amp
- Your listening preferences

Keep in mind when you see a speaker rated for 87-89db, these ratings are typically for one speaker in an anechoic chamber (2.83volts @ 1 Meter). When you factor in a 5-7 speaker setup and room accoustics that number could easily jump up to 90-92db.


Quote:
I've seen some expensive speakers that are < 90 sensitivity and I am not sure why..
Because many are very good sounding speakers, and for the reasons annotated above. You 100% cannot just focus just on sensitivity and state that a speaker is a good speaker or not. I have listened to speakers that were rated at 95db vs speakers that were rated at 87db and the 87db speaker, hands down, was the better all around speaker. I just left a tower speaker that was rated at 90db sensitivity and stepped into a bookshelf that is rated at 87db sensitivity and the bookshelf speaker is far and away the better sounding speaker (having a good dedicated sub for HT is a must). It really comes down to what you want out of a speaker, your room size/listening position/dynamics, your listening preferences, and your receiver/amp capabilities.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
However, going with high-efficiency speakers might have its own problems. My understanding is that compression drivers introduce distortion. I wonder if even a waveguide can be at least slightly distortive in some way. I'm no expert on these issues.
According to Geddes and other experts, Waveguides/compression drivers are designed to have less distortion period and they are also designed to have incredible directivity. When setup properly they will create a SQ that no dome can compete with.....its pure undistorted sound. Surprisingly lots of people are not use to that sort of sound. People like distortion, reflecting (Shimmering) around the room.




Quote:
I just recently started reading up on waveguides and it is fascinating stuff.
Cool

Did you read these thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...hreadid=103872 yet?

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

This thread has been mostly about movies, but for me, music is important.

I posted this in another thread:

The following calculator is useful:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

IMO, for music, one thing that distinguishes "live" sound is *loud* PEAKS (I am distinguishing short-term peaks from continuous 115dB or whatever, which would be harmful to your ears). For instance, this is from the Musical Fidelity site:

How loud should musical peaks be?

Several years ago, John Atkinson, editor of Stereophile, measured,
from a normal audience position, the peak level produced by a small
symphony orchestra in a concert hall. He measured peaks of 109dB to
110dB. One of the top recording engineers in the world, Tony
Faulkner, regularly measures 113dB to 116dB peaks from large
symphony orchestras. Rock music is even louder. Please understand
that these levels are on musical peaks, and not average continuous
levels.

If a hi-fi system is to be realistic, it should be able to achieve
realistic peak levels at a normal listening position.
.
.
.
it is beyond dispute that the smaller amplifier will be
incapable of ever, under any circumstances, producing a significant
dynamic attack. In our opinion, dynamic attack is vital to the
realistic reproduction of music.


Also, Check page 2 of the following:
http://www.baua.de/nn_53260/en/Topic...nd-2007-03.pdf
I read the graph at the bottom of the page to indicate that measured 25 meters from the front of the stage, the QUIETEST of 70+ measured concerts had peak SPL of about 108dB. The AVERAGE concert had peak SPL of perhaps (eyeballing it) 117dB. Not clear what type(s) of concerts were involved.

syswei

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei
Or tweeters on even big, expensive audiophile speakers. I like the Soundstage distorition measurements, but even those are never conducted at more than 95dB/2m (101dB/1m equivalent). I have never seen pro speaker distortion measurements at more than 102dB/1m; and those tend to be from the manufacturers, rather than independent publications.

However, going with high-efficiency speakers might have its own problems. My understanding is that compression drivers introduce distortion. I wonder if even a waveguide can be at least slightly distortive in some way. I'm no expert on these issues.
Good points. I know when I was researching my speakers (SVS SCS-01) I did find a review of the SBS speakers (which are a step down from the SCS-01) and "Secrets" measured them at:
Quote:
The tweeter gave less than 0.5% THD at 10 kHz and 100 dB
Which, for me, is more than adequate since I rarely go above 100db even for peaks. I watched "Taken" on Blu-Ray last night and the highest measurement I took was around 92db for peaks (fun movie too). Dialogue was running in the mid 60's and my receiver was set to "63". DTS-HD-MA tends to sound a few db louder than Dolby TrueHD and DD, and definitely louder than PCM.

It would be interesting to see the THD levels with my speakers at 105-110db range.

I just recently started reading up on waveguides and it is fascinating stuff.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71
As MLKstudios pointed out there comes a time when small speakers will just self destruct when you exceed their capabilities.
Or tweeters on even big, expensive audiophile speakers. I like the Soundstage distorition measurements, but even those are never conducted at more than 95dB/2m (101dB/1m equivalent). I have never seen pro speaker distortion measurements at more than 102dB/1m; and those tend to be from the manufacturers, rather than independent publications.

However, going with high-efficiency speakers might have its own problems. My understanding is that compression drivers introduce distortion. I wonder if even a waveguide can be at least slightly distortive in some way. I'm no expert on these issues.

syswei

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74
Your wrong. It also depends on the time and what freqency most of the energy is in. But you are maybe a person that cannot afford good equipment that can do this.
Wow. There is no need to be rude.

Johnsteph10

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71
The point was to simply illustrate that you can't really interchange speaker sensitivity for amplifier power. As MLKstudios pointed out there comes a time when small speakers will just self destruct when you exceed their capabilities.
Got it....in total agreement.

cschang

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
Right! I just re-built my mid/tweeter box for my HT....they are 96/db/w/m...

They have 96dB sensitivity and they only go to 60Hz but they kick ass!!!......My subs do the rest of the room.
Hey those look amazing! The curved wall gives it a decidedly non DIY look and I'm sure it helps with standing waves.

I have to put a finish on my horns this summer and I'd really like to use some nice wood veneer but it'll be all but imposable given their shape/design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang
Don't forget in-room vs anechoic sensitivity. Also, reference is 105dB peaks per channel, not 120db......115dB for the LFE channel.
I thought I mention room gain in my post I didn't put a number on it because it'll be different for every room. And we were talking about 100-120db reproduction, not THX reference levels.

The point was to simply illustrate that you can't really interchange speaker sensitivity for amplifier power. As MLKstudios pointed out there comes a time when small speakers will just self destruct when you exceed their capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
Yes, I should have qualified. If you want to approach 120db with any authority or for sustained periods, you would definitely want to consider horn loaded speakers such as Klipsch. Some of them are rated at 100db. But getting 105-112db on a less efficient 89db speaker is not that difficult with a good amp when you factor in room dynamics and multiple speakers (5-7). Emotiva makes very affordable amps that can drive 500 watts RMS for 89db speakers. But if you are really into listening to music/movies that peak well above 105, I agree speaker sensitivity should be a priority and anything under 95db is probably not going to be what you need, especially with a large room and even then you are going to need some dedicated amps that can drive some serious power to get to 120db cleanly and sustained. And at that point you should also be considering double drywall/green glue/ wall decoupling and lots of acoustical treatments
Yes if you're willing to pump your music through all speaks for a party or something then that will help for sure. No to many speakers will handle 500 watts without major power compression and huge distortion though.

And while 95-96 db/w/m speaker will require a robust dedicated amp a really high efficiency design still only needs a small amp to do 120db.

The mid horn's I use require 1 watt to do 115db and the bullet tweeter will do 112db with 1 watt. The midbass horns are anywhere from 100-110db/w/m depending on room gain. The sub is rated at anywhere from 95db/w/m to 105db/w/m depending on room gain. At most all that I use is a few watts on all but the sub when playing at rock concert levels in my small room. Anyway something like Pen's system or a set of JTR's and a big amp is really a better solution for most. Speaker sensitivity over 100db/w/m isn't really need in a home setting. I just fell in love with the sound of that Altec 288 compression driver. Anyway I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just think the topic is interesting.

I also agree with what you mentioned earlier that speaker sensitivity doesn't equal great sound quality. Five seconds in Guitar center will tell you that .

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74
But you are maybe a person that cannot afford good equipment that can do this.
No need to be rude.

steve71

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

10-20dB peaks is pretty normal.

I have quite a number of stuff which are over 30dB.....music not HT (read from my RTA which is always on) If you don't mind trying something just for testing the system, the Danley firework clip would an interesting way to start. If you have a good/fast meter like the pros do which can capture the transients properly, you may find that 120dB in live performances from percussive musical instruments up close as in a couple of metres away & unamplified is very very common.

I guess it depends on your fav genres ultimately....though I like "compressed" trance too.

2100

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99
So what?

I don't listen to single frequency tones as a general rule. I listen to movies and music, and stand by my general statement.

Seemed to me people were saying 100dB isn't loud as long as it's reproduced clean. And, I agree from a certain perspective. It doesn't sound that loud, yet it is that loud.

Please, understand that different freqvencys and distortion/compressed will make a big difference. I promise you, a good Infected mushroom tune at 100 dB is much easier to listen to than a distorted Ministry record.

NIN74

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big L
110 dB average huh?
Well, just make sure you can afford to buy nicer and nicer equipment.
'Cause you're going to have to crank the volume higher and higher, over time, to make up for your hearing loss.

Oh that's right, that's not important to this topic...

Your wrong. It also depends on the time and what freqency most of the energy is in. But you are maybe a person that cannot afford good equipment that can do this.

NIN74

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLKstudios
I don't think anyone here is saying they listen to 100dB (or 80dB or 90dB) constantly. You would have to be listening to pink noise.

But, having speakers that can handle those "occasional" peaks over 100dB without distortion is the key to good dynamics. They allow you to listen at a higher level without fatigue.

My JBL's sound good loud, and really good really loud. I love to crank it on the opening trumpets and when the THX trailer does its thing. While watching I keep my finger on the volume due to the neighbors.
I used to do that or use it artistically when a friend would pop over, oh this would be many years ago many before this site was even around.

Today I just rehearse the film/DVD or in some rare ones (laserdisc dts) and then leave the volume where it is not too loud or uncomfortable in the mid range to high.

I remember someone pointing out on Lansing Heritage site early this year, there is few high frequencies that might be too much to bare I forget which? I’d have to look though the posts and find the thread unless somewhere knows which frequency that is?

Certain lows sine wave really tax my ears and I’m sure it would bug the hell of out most others, when played at cretin SPL db level.

I’ve been looking into the dynamic EQ on the DCX2496 to find simple and yet easy level to control the flow of LCR where C tends to have different mix level, yet when L/R is too high its smears over C making it rather distant sounding.

Made a few good attempts last night with Star Wars IV [chough, chough!] during the opening there’s a nice drum beat in the centre and few other musical instruments playing if anyone cared to notice.

Generally I think as most of us get older we start to listen at lower level or safer level. Years many so moons ago, I’d be close to 100db on the control 5 and that is just TOO LOUD! The light-bulb fuse protection circuit would light up and my friends thought it looked trendy. LOL


Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
Yes, I should have qualified. If you want to approach 120db with any authority or for sustained periods, you would definitely want to consider horn loaded speakers such as Klipsch. Some of them are rated at 100db. But getting 105-112db on a less efficient 89db speaker is not that difficult with a good amp when you factor in room dynamics and multiple speakers (5-7). Emotiva makes very affordable amps that can drive 500 watts RMS for 89db speakers. But if you are really into listening to music/movies that peak well above 105, I agree speaker sensitivity should be a priority and anything under 95db is probably not going to be what you need, especially with a large room and even then you are going to need some dedicated amps that can drive some serious power to get to 120db cleanly and sustained. And at that point you should also be considering double drywall/green glue/ wall decoupling and lots of acoustical treatments
Well there is that crown SPL db calculator that does the trick quite well in determining the power needs VS desired listening level and distance from source the high the SPL and father away the more and more difficult it becomes, but not impossible just awkward if you don’t happen to have the speakers or amps.

JBLsound4645

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.
Right! I just re-built my mid/tweeter box for my HT....they are 96/db/w/m...

speaker porn......



The bass bin is being rebuilt, the original is here but I have to match my knew speaker designs....curved MDF and pretty baffles.



They have 96dB sensitivity and they only go to 60Hz but they kick ass!!!......My subs do the rest of the room.


Next build will by 96dB waveguide designs.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Very cool penngray. The DYI stuff is pretty intriguing. One day when I have more time and the kids are older

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
Very cool penngray. The DYI stuff is pretty intriguing. One day when I have more time and the kids are older
I hear that! Two girls (2 1/2 year old and a 6 week old)....

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71
Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.
Yes, I should have qualified. If you want to approach 120db with any authority or for sustained periods, you would definitely want to consider horn loaded speakers such as Klipsch. Some of them are rated at 100db. But getting 105-112db on a less efficient 89db speaker is not that difficult with a good amp when you factor in room dynamics and multiple speakers (5-7). Emotiva makes very affordable amps that can drive 500 watts RMS for 89db speakers. But if you are really into listening to music/movies that peak well above 105, I agree speaker sensitivity should be a priority and anything under 95db is probably not going to be what you need, especially with a large room and even then you are going to need some dedicated amps that can drive some serious power to get to 120db cleanly and sustained. And at that point you should also be considering double drywall/green glue/ wall decoupling and lots of acoustical treatments

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71
Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.
Some speakers simply won't reach high SPL, no matter how much power you put behind them. Eventually the cone rips out.

That's why pro level speakers are rated at max. SPL.

Most boutique speakers, are meant to be played at moderate volumes.

MLKstudios

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager
I would really like to see some proof that a sound at say 40hz, 100 dB is as damaging as 10Khz @ 100dB. Maybe the affect on our ears is the same, but intuitively, they feel very different.
There are plenty of papers/sites out there regarding hearing loss and decibel levels. Just Google for it. I think this topic (hearing loss) has been beaten to death. If you want to play well into 100db-120db range you are going to need efficient speakers or you are going to need a good receiver/amp to drive less efficient speakers. If you are less concerned about playing into the 100-120db range you are probably just fine with less efficient speakers. Just do your homework

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

I think this topic (hearing loss) has been beaten to deaf

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
... or you are going to need a good receiver/amp to drive less efficient speakers.
Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.

steve71

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71
Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.
Don't forget in-room vs anechoic sensitivity. Also, reference is 105dB peaks per channel, not 120db......115dB for the LFE channel.

cschang

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

I would really like to see some proof that a sound at say 40hz, 100 dB is as damaging as 10Khz @ 100dB. Maybe the affect on our ears is the same, but intuitively, they feel very different.

Wrager

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99
I don't care what volume anyone listens at. That's their problem.

My only point was I don't believe it matters from a hearing damage perspective whether or not the 100dB (or what ever) sounds good or sounds like crap. It's still 100dB.
thats cool, I think everyone agrees with you.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

100 db's is very loud, but not uncomfortable with speakers than can reproduce cleanly. I listen at reference levels all the time and no one ever said to turn it down. My system handles reference levels with no problems. Peaks once in a while at 105 db's will not cause hearing damage. I have gone to concerts that are much louder than what I play my theater and my hearing is still ok. The concert was a constant 110+ db's. If you listen lower that is fine, your choice, dolby labs and THX play their movies with peaks at 105 db's(highs and mids) and 115+ db's for the bass and that is what I do. Not dangerous at all.

JUst check out my sig, it can cause hearing damage, but not at the levels I set it at.

MKtheater

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
Very true but some speakers sound like crap @ 100dB and some sound flawless. Its easier to listen to 100dB peaks from those speakers that do it well then too distortion ringing across the room.

Give a person 30 minutes with distorted speakers @ 100dB and they will beg for it all to stop. Give a person 30 minutes with un-distorted speakers @ 100dB and they will wonder what happened to the time because it was pure joy.

30 minutes @ 100dB once in a blue moon will not make ANYONE go deaf so can we just leave the 100dB will make you go deaf BS at home.
I don't care what volume anyone listens at. That's their problem.

My only point was I don't believe it matters from a hearing damage perspective whether or not the 100dB (or what ever) sounds good or sounds like crap. It's still 100dB.

whoaru99

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74
Play a distorted 10 000 hz at 100 dB in a bad room and then compare that to a non distorted 30 hz tone in a good room an get back to me.
So what?

I don't listen to single frequency tones as a general rule. I listen to movies and music, and stand by my general statement.

Seemed to me people were saying 100dB isn't loud as long as it's reproduced clean. And, I agree from a certain perspective. It doesn't sound that loud, yet it is that loud.

whoaru99

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74
I have played average 110 dB at listeningposition with good songs and that it something that are superb if the system can do it.
110 dB average huh?
Well, just make sure you can afford to buy nicer and nicer equipment.
'Cause you're going to have to crank the volume higher and higher, over time, to make up for your hearing loss.

Oh that's right, that's not important to this topic...

Big L

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big L
110 dB average huh?
Well, just make sure you can afford to buy nicer and nicer equipment.
'Cause you're going to have to crank the volume higher and higher, over time, to make up for your hearing loss.

Oh that's right, that's not important to this topic...
I bet I will be the only one who is not deaf in the future, I learned my lesson when I went to a rap concert, stood near the subwoofers, my left ear was feeling stuffy for three days and there was some ringing.

Raymond Leggs

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99
I know what you're saying, but just for clarity, 100dB is 100dB, regardless if it "sounds loud" or not.

Play a distorted 10 000 hz at 100 dB in a bad room and then compare that to a non distorted 30 hz tone in a good room an get back to me.

NIN74

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big L
No, 110 dB is bad if you want to continue to hear things.

Sorry, you maybe should read a little more.
First, it depends how dynamic a song/movie is. I have songs that have peaks that are almost 30 db! To listen to that without any distortion one needs a VERY good system. Let's say I want the average lisninglevel at 80 dB, 10 feet away from the speakers. So let's calculate: Around 10 dB because of the distance, 30 dB for the peak + 80dB at average level = 120 dB. And many times I want higher, say 95-100 dB.

Secondly, it depends on the sound! Compressed and distorted sound with a lot of energy at high levels will be worse. Dynamic and clean sound with most of its energy in the bass, will be really good.

I have played average 110 dB at listeningposition with good songs and that it something that are superb if the system can do it.

NIN74

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray

Did you read these thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...hreadid=103872 yet?
No, but I will...

Thanks penngray. BTW, I am originally from Florida and attended UF before moving all over the country. Enjoy the sunshine and oranges

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
ak, great test and write up but your test is incomplete because you have to test both your speakers and speakers that do high SPL/low distortion to have a complete test and understanding. Your speakers are not remotely high end (nothing wrong with them for most people but they are not designed for high spl).

Only then can you conlude that you are uncomfortable with high SPL from any speaker.
I would be happy to test higher end speakers, but with dialogue in the 60db range and peak scenes in the 80db range I am not convinced that there is distortion at all. I am hearing no audible distortion in these ranges with my equipment, and if I can't hear it, well, I can't hear it.

As far as high SPL you have my somewhat confused. Even if you are listening to dialogue with high SPL speakers in the 85db range, it is still 85db. Distortion or no distortion the SPL meter will not lie It will still be the equivalent to somebody shouting at you. extremely loud. I am not sure what difference a high SPL speaker would make here except to the point that it will play louder with less distortion at high SPL levels. I get that.


Quote:
You also have to realize that no one is questioning you or your system. Replies like yours makes me wonder if people understand discussions on here about theory and top end performance. Many seem to take it personal when someone posts "Brand X,Y and Z are the only top SPL, low distortion options out there".
\

I am not taking it personal at all. I wanted to determine at what levels you guys are listening at (from your sitting position) to be getting dialogue in the 85db range and peaks above 100. I have no beef with you doing that at all, and I can understand why you would want a sensitive speaker and/or lots of wattage to get there. It makes perfect sense. If somebody came to me and told me they like dialogue in the 80-90 range and peaks at or above 105, I would definitely not recommend my speakers and receiver. They probably would not be happy

Quote:
You do not need higher SPL, you do not listen at high levels at all and you have a small room. On the other hand my family room is approx 35x40x12.....its rather large room that houses can fit into, Great for hosting sporting events, etc. Do you realize what is needed for 21 feet back? (btw, its an acoustical nightmare too, that is why I love my Custom HT room).
I totally agree that room dynamics and acoustics (ie vaulted ceilings, hard surfaced floors, room size, etc) play a huge role. I am in the same boat in my living room upstairs and the ceilings peak at 22' and there are hardwoods. This room was exactly why I built a media area downstairs


Quote:
The discussion about distortion is a generic one and should be understood and accepted. This doesnt mean people have bad speakers it just means they should realize what happens IF they are turned up past X dBs.
Agreed. Distortion is a reality and higher decibel levels play a huge role. But as I pointed out earlier, there are few bookshelf speakers out there in the $1K and below range that are rated above 90db. I would be curious what speakers you would recommend to get the high SPL levels you are talking about at a realistic price (say under $4K a pair).

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

In a really live room the higher spl is bouncing everywhere. And thus sounds bad.
In a dead room much of the high spl is being sucked up by the room.
In a neutral room you're in between those two extremes. And 85db and higher isn't bad at all.

4DHD

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Some people like to play loud and some people just don't.
Great, the OP asked about performance during 100dBs....why do people need to post arguing dB levels when the OP question was not asking about ear damage or asking if others play at that level?

He simple wants to know if different speakers perform better at 100dBs and the answer is yes! Its not based on Bright or Warm though, its based on Distortion measurements.


Some speakers exhibit higher distortion curves during high SPL and therefore sound a lot worse then other speakers will minimum distortion at high SPL.

Ignoring worrying about who is going deaf and who is listening at low levels does anyone have a problem with that statement?

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Thanks, it was actually a pretty fun little test. I am going to do more testing when I have time
make sure you know the calibration correction numbers for the RS meter because its well known the RS meter can be very inaccurate. You also should realize that RS meters may not be accurate enough to pick up split second peaks during movie playback. This means, you actually will not know what your true peaks are.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

I talk loud. My whispers are loud too. I have always been like that. When you test your spl meter make sure it is on fast, not slow. That shows better peaks. I recently have been watching movies at reference levels but only because my speakers sound good at that level. I have been through alot of speakers and many of them just don't sound that good at reference levels. I don't mind that someone else listens at lower volumes, that is their choice. I know the OP's question was about near reference level peaks and certain speakers play better up there than others, that is all.

MKtheater

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

OSHA Daily Permissible Noise Level Exposure .....8 hours a day 90dBs!!!

I think its safe to say 90dB for a movie per day is a safe thing

Anyways, Can we move on from the "I listen @ x dBs"? that stuff is all subjective anyways.

Ack,
You have a small room, you like it quiet. You are correct that your speakers work are you trying to say they will work for anyone because they work for you?

I would say people should learn as much as they can, know all the facts and then make their own decision. I do not suggest ONE brand of speakers. I suggest what requirements meet or exceed THX Home Theater solutions. Your speakers do not achieve that at 15 feet back.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
PS Kudos on listening to your Dad and protecting your hearing.
My Dad also said don't do drugs 30 years ago.....blah!! Who is a member of the NFIL?

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big L
Good review there, ack_bk!
I pulled out my Rat Shack SPL meter (I have an older analog one) and did some measuring.
My comfort zone is similar to yours. Low 60 dBs for the most part with peaks in the high 70s/low 80s.
I too like people voices on-screen to sound as if they were in the room with me. Not shouting at me. Even with my slight hearing loss (and it's only in the very upper frequency range) I don't feel the need to turn things up.
When the volume is too loud, like 85dB with peaks in the 100s, it doesn't envelop me. It draws attention to itself and makes me wonder: "why is this so loud"?
But to each their own...

PS Kudos on listening to your Dad and protecting your hearing.
Thanks, it was actually a pretty fun little test. I am going to do more testing when I have time. I have noticed that movies encoded with DTS-HD-MA tend to be slightly louder and I typically have to adjust my receiver down a few notches. So I will try and test some more soon.

I think it goes back to what people have trained their ears to, as well as sensitivity. Some people like to play loud and some people just don't. I think I have always been conscious of it because of my Dad, and trust me it has been very sad to watch him lose his hearing over the past 20+ years. He has seen numerous specialists and has had tubes/etc put in his ears to help, but to have a normal conversation with him, you have to stand closer than normal and raise you voice. I cannot tell you how many times I have had to repeat myself and it is extremely frustrating for both of us. But he worked in constuction his whole life and only selectively wore hearing protection. His problems really started in his late 30's and became much worse in his late 40's. He started wearing hearing protection properly in his 40's but by then it was too late, the damage was done.

Hearing loss is very real and very scary. There is tons of literature out there on it, and I would encourage all to read and educate themselves. I see construction workers constantly using circular saws, power drills/hammers, etc with no hearing protection and it is sad.

ack_bk

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
That seems really high (your SPL test). Every chart I have seen states that normal conversations take place in the 60db range. I just pulled out my SPL meter and did the same test you did. I talked at normal conversation voice from 3 ft away and it registered right at 60db. At 70-80db you should have to yell from 3ft away to get that measurement.

This chart also seems to align:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

As for the rest of your post, I totally understand wanting to get the most out of your home theater and trying to capture the power and dynamics of your local theater. The purpose of my post was not to call anyone out or try to play mommy/daddy and tell you to "turn it down".

But it is pretty clear to me that reference levels is very subjective. 85db for you may be normal for dialogue in a movie, but it is definitely not for me Nobody is right or wrong, but there are numerous studies and reports out there that discuss hearing loss and what levels you should be listening at. 100db would be the equivalent of using a pneumatic hammer without hearing protection, and to me, that is too loud for my tastes.
No ones arguing about dB levels and what is the right playback level. The only point is that you need to understand that as dB levels increase many popular speakers have distortion and when that distortion reflects around the room its LOUD.

That is all and again I posted this before...if you do not listen above 80dBs, you need not be in this discussion since it does not apply to you or your system.

btw, Your room is small that equals room gain and Im have no idea if your treatments are effective. in untreated/improperly treated room.....85dBs is MUCH louder then in a properly treated room.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

Quote:
I felt like the actors were shouting at normal dialogue levels and when they did shout, it was uncomfortable.
ak, great test and write up but your test is incomplete because you have to test both your speakers and speakers that do high SPL/low distortion to have a complete test and understanding. Your speakers are not remotely high end (nothing wrong with them for most people but they are not designed for high spl).

Only then can you conlude that you are uncomfortable with high SPL from any speaker.

You also have to realize that no one is questioning you or your system. Replies like yours makes me wonder if people understand discussions on here about theory and top end performance. Many seem to take it personal when someone posts "Brand X,Y and Z are the only top SPL, low distortion options out there".

You do not need higher SPL, you do not listen at high levels at all and you have a small room. On the other hand my family room is approx 35x40x12.....its rather large room that houses can fit into, Great for hosting sporting events, etc. Do you realize what is needed for 21 feet back? (btw, its an acoustical nightmare too, that is why I love my Custom HT room).

The discussion about distortion is a generic one and should be understood and accepted. This doesnt mean people have bad speakers it just means they should realize what happens IF they are turned up past X dBs.

penngray

100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker

If voices sound like they're shouting when you turn up the volume then you are hearing distortion.

steve71

 0 1
Previous Question:  Quadro NVS 450 on Ubuntu 10.04 crashes X no screens  nV News Forums  NVIDIA LinuxNext Question:  Possible Iraqi Info Minister committed suicide  SpeedGuide.net Broadband Community  General Discussion Board

- Source: 100 dB or higher on bright speaker vs. warm speaker AVS Forum Speakers
- Previous Question: Quadro NVS 450 on Ubuntu 10.04 crashes X no screens nV News Forums NVIDIA Linux
- Next Question: Possible Iraqi Info Minister committed suicide SpeedGuide.net Broadband Community General Discussion Board